We want culture, please
I had to laugh at the comment left below on the Back to the Future post about the Playhouse. The rude commenter (lobbyist?) says that more condos and stores and a mixed-use development is what is needed in the Grove.
I see it differently -- it seems that every time The Barnacle has a music event, the whole town shows up. Last December, "It's A Wonderful Life" was probably the most spectacular event we had in the Grove, that's if you don't count the outdoor showings of Much Ado About Nothing, which drew standing room only crowds -- even in the rain.
Even Blue Man Grove draws massive crowds on a street corner! And don't get me started on the Arts Festivals and Taste of the Grove and all the other cultural things we do. They all bring out massive crowds from the whole county.
I think the person who left the comment needs to get to know his/her neighbors and the tourists. As far as I can tell, culture is what people want. Not more condos.
I see it differently -- it seems that every time The Barnacle has a music event, the whole town shows up. Last December, "It's A Wonderful Life" was probably the most spectacular event we had in the Grove, that's if you don't count the outdoor showings of Much Ado About Nothing, which drew standing room only crowds -- even in the rain.
Even Blue Man Grove draws massive crowds on a street corner! And don't get me started on the Arts Festivals and Taste of the Grove and all the other cultural things we do. They all bring out massive crowds from the whole county.
I think the person who left the comment needs to get to know his/her neighbors and the tourists. As far as I can tell, culture is what people want. Not more condos.
posted by Tom Falco at 11:50 AM
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25 Comments:
I don't think that the commenter was being rude. He is right about mix-use development, and I don't understand Grapevine's comment that mix-use hasn't worked in the Grove, because I don't see that it's been tried, yet. Not in the Grove, anyway.
Of course, anybody who makes a comment on this blog that runs contrary to the conventional thinking - i.e., developers are evil; let's spend other people's money; property owners have no rights - gets branded a "lobbyist." Talk about rude.
When they don't sign their names I find them to be lobbyists most times. I check their IP addresses and that is the case.
I felt the comment was rude by stating that since one tourist asked for this then it is the way it should be. That was a snide, rude remark. I might be wrong, but I am out and about daily speaking with people and other than builders, developers and their lobbyists, most people would like to see the Playhouse saved and used for something cultural. Not just the one lost tourist.
I have to agree with Grape on this one. Its nonsense to put condos and stores there when it is a theater or trying to be. Lets not kill culture for more condos. If possible, i think keeping it as a viable playhouse or revivial house would be much prefered by most people than making it condos. Just because the current board ran it into the ground does not mean it should automatically be made into condos.
Condos are sitting empty all over town. No one is buying. Keep the playhouse, remove the current board and move forward. NO CONDOS.
Actually I tried signing with google blogger account several times bu it would not work.
Nope, I'm not a lobbyst. I am not a developer. Shit, most of the time, though I run my own business, I don't even think I'm a businessman! I've lived in the Grove, in Brickell and currently in the Gables and, yes, I truly believe in cities and mixed use development because I have seen them work in Madrid, Barcelona, London, Berlin, Paris, Milan and a whole other bunch of cities where I have worked.
As to culture... I would defy you to say that there is no culture in Madrid, Barcelona and all these cities. Culture is not the opposite of mixed use. Actually, in many cases, it is synonimous.
The Grove Playhouse, whether one likes it or not, is pretty much dead in the water. There is no way that thing is going to come back from the tomb.
Now, I didn't say anything about the Barnacle, so I don't know how that got into the conversation. Neither did I say anything against the Art Festivals, which I enjoy a lot, or, for that matter, things like the King Mango strut, which I also enjoy. So I don't know what made you bring that into the conversation.
But the playhouse? Dude... that thing is dead... it just doesn't know it yet.
As to the rude comment... what was rude?
Marcelo Salup
www.dailycamera.blogspot.com
Marcelo, you are a very negative person.
swlip, I have to say that I have yet to see a successful venture between a developer and live theatre; in every case that I'm aware of, the developer included the theater in their project to gain support, and cut them loose once they had the funding in place.
I'm actually willing to give this developer the benefit of the doubt: my complaints are with the theater's board and the lack of leadership they demonstrate. You can't build a successful theater without a clear artistic mission, and they have not offered one. Thus, the project is doomed to fail.
I apologize Marcelo, most times when I check the IP addresses on many comments that are pro development it is a lobbyist (someone at a local newspaper helps me with this, they pointed it out to me long ago during the Home Depot and Mercy condo project arguments).
Anyway, mixed use is great, but most feel the playhouse is not dead, only the board is brain dead. Most feel with proper management and mixed productions like plays, movies, other things, the place can be a viable business again.
I like the idea of a restaurant and shops in the lobby, but to knock it down, wipe out any plays or productions and put in condos and shops seems a harsh way to go for this one particular entity.
we have mixed used. There are condos mixed in with retail in Mayfair and the building be hind Mayfair and it is not working at the moment. I think first off what we need to try to attract the types of businesses that we are lacking. Thats why i thought trader joe's was a great idea. Heck i even emailed In&Out burger after the discussion on another post about opening a location here. They actually responded with a really great email and said that yes they were expanding and although they were not sure where that would be yet they would keep the grove in mind. I can think of a hundred businesses that would do great here and really help fill in the store fronts. we do not need anymore freaking hair salons or spas. What we need are a better balance of businesses. That in turn will help fill in those condos and improve the overall area. It makes NO SENSE to even suggest tearing down the playhouse. If it were renovated right and under the right management it would complement the existing block and neighborhood.
as for the types of businesses i would like to see; R.E.I (co-op outdoor sporting good store). A normal family-like Italian restaurant (do you know how hard it is to just get some spaghetti and meatballs in this town?). Some sort of small electronic store like radio shack. I would say kinkos but they are already coming.
What would you guys like to see?
LOL. Well we like coffee, too. :)
When I see a comment about being a negative person with no explanation and, of course, anonymous, I laugh it off.
I am not a negative person by and large. However, I don't let other people do my thinking for me, subscribe to a herd mentality or not think things through.
In every case, when the Grove is being brought up, a lot of one-time events are mentioned: the Arts Festival, my two favorites, the Goombay (which I love) and the King Mango Strut... even the Blue Man Band on a street corner.
These are one-of's.
If you think coldly about it, there is not enough people around us to sustain the playhouse.
Anyone can see that. Never mind that the board is brain dead or whatever. There's just no base.
Madrid, Barcelona, etc. are all multimillion people cities, and even there, traditional cultural icons like the theater or a philharmonic are just not that popular. In Madrid, which is where I lived most of my life, there's a handful of theaters and maybe 1,000 movie theaters.
Culture --and you can read a ton about this in sociology sites-- has moved into the house (this is called cocooning) via VOD, DVD's, Plasma TV's, and has been otherwise transformed.
That's life.
Think about keeping the playhouse. Where are you going to get 300 or 400 people a week to watch a play? Really? And, without 300 or 400 people a week paying $40 or $50, the theater is just not feasible.
If you look around the Grove, there's been a huge amount of change that many newcomers now think are traditional. But, for example, there used to be a moviehouse that played the Rocky Horror Picture Show every Friday night in the 80's in the corner where the Post Office is now. It is gone. Too bad, move on.
In Madrid we went through the same hand-wringing when the city tore down a market (no one can even remember what it was called) and built a plaza instead. In Paris it was the same thing with Les Halles and now everyone loves the Centre Pompidou.
Move on people.
Being against EVERY development is knee jerk. A Lincoln Road in the Grove extending from the Post office to 37th Avenue would be superb. If it had condos there (and the market will probably assure that they would not be un-affordable) it would be even better, hell, I would love to live in a place like that in four or five years when my daughter is out of college and I don't need all this house.
And, yep, I do sign my real name.
The Grove playhouse is for everyone, not just Grove citizens. That's like saying Lincoln Center in NY is only used by the people in a 5 block area of Manhattan.
A "Lincoln Road" in the Grove. Pleeeeease! Lincoln Rd was cute because it was transformed into something more bearable than it was. As far as I'm concerned, Lincoln Rd is purely for tourists...and they better be hungry cause apart from restaurants, bars and tacky antique shops, the only place I can say that I like is Books and Books and I can go to Coral Gables for that where I won't find that many tourists!
You can "move on" without moving out and making the Grove a clone of so many OTHER places.
Please please please, no more condos that can't be sold to anyone! Theaters? yes Movies? yes Parks? yes. And of course, like Grape says...a place that can be both theater and movies, music and community activities centers. No more malls, no more chain restaurants, no more bars for pete's sake! We have enough!
Marcelo has obviously been to parts of Europe that I haven't visited yet. Music, the arts, museums, movies and yes, culture, have not left Europe as far as I know.
Elena... and you are so wrong on so many fronts.
(1) I am not a tourist, having moved back in 97 after living abroad for years and I go to Lincoln Road a lot. For dinner, for drinks, for the so-forgotten pastime of just sitting and people watching and because it is one of the few places in Miami where you can walk. What's more, I do meet a ton of my friends over there.
(2) So what if it brings tourists to the Grove? That would be a huge plus in my view, especially today that, with the strong Euro, they are the big spenders. If you don't like tourists, fine... but don't try to force your opinion as a rule! Tourism is a multi-billion dollar industry for Miami and, what's better, one of the cleanest industries around.
Take a look at Detroit and see what a "dirty" industry can do in a recession.
(3) Stop looking at the world in black & white. Mixed use doesn't negate even the playhouse. I just happen to think that one is dead in the water.
For better or for worse, the US is a market economy. As I said on my first post, people have voted with their feet: there is no longer a playhouse and there are no longer those movie theaters in Commodore Plaza. People didn't go.
And, for better or for worse, what most people seem to want is restaurants, bars and fun.
If market dynamics support a theater/movie/art complex, it will undoubtedly exist soon. If not, then not. And, if a developer were smart, you would see a lot of smaller, cheaper condos on top of that development and, trust me, they will sell in a couple of years when we are out of this latest craze.
I went through the internet bubble (and lost money there) and the world didn't end. Then through the S&L crisis and the world didn't end. Through Franco's death and the world didn't end... eventually, the real estate market will pick up and having a Lincoln Road lookalike from the Post Office to 37th Avenue will be fantastic.
Look at the volume of people and business that make up Lincoln Road, then look at our own Grove and, man, if I were a small business owner, I would certainly prefer the former over the latter.
(4) And the background is much more than Europe. Take a look at www.salup.com and you'll see where I'm drawing my conclusions: Europe, Asia, Africa... one starts seeing patterns of success
BTW, if you think I don't care about "West" Grove (or the Black Grove as we used to call it ages ago) take a look at www.dailycamera.blogspot.com
Enjoy
WE DONT WANT A LINCOLN ROAD. If i did I would move there. The grove is different and we like it that way. And tourists have been coming to the grove long before lincoln road became the hit thing. I like the vibe here and thats why i live here. I could move to SB if i wanted to: i don't. If you love it there marcelo great, enjoy it. but i will take teh grove over it any day of the week. The grove has so much potential and i think we all want what is best for it: a copy of SB is not it.
On a side note, i think SB has lost a lot recently itself. i would describe it as more Ghetto sheek they its former vibe. I also know a lot of friends in the gay community who really made SB what it is who are moving north to boca and west palm because the vibe has changed so much and not for the better.
marcelo:
I lived in Europe for several years, myself, before moving back to Florida in '97, and I understand exactly what you're saying. Multi-use is actually perfectly compatible with culture. Indeed, you really can't support a cultural venue without achieving a certain "critical mass" in population density (not to mention public infrastructure).
But you might as well talk to your wall. People here are whiners. They complain about sagging business in the Grove, but they don't want more tourists. They complain about buses coming in to let passengers use the restrooms, but they are against building sufficient parking space to allow more people to visit without getting skinned alive. They complain about lack of green space, but they react harshly to any proposal to increase green space in the Grove.
And they constantly ruminate about how they wish other people would invest in the Grove -- Publix! Trader Joes! -- while not exhibiting a single clue about how their past behavior (re: their uncompromising position toward Home Depot) may have scared away investors.
In other words, they are a bunch of reactionaries. There's really no hope for them, and not much use engaging them.
And yes, I expect to be accused of being a developer lobbyist in 5...4...3...2....
To anonymous at 10:40 am.
YOU don't want another Lincoln Road.
I do.
The Grove playhouse is for everyone, not just Grove citizens. That's like saying Lincoln Center in NY is only used by the people in a 5 block area of Manhattan.
I hate to break it to you but the Playhouse is NOT for everyone in the same way that the PAC is not for everyone. There is MAYBE 2% of the population who enjoys going to a theatrical event. Why do you think the place has been closed for so long? Im sure mismanagement has played a big part in the Playhouse's decline as well. In fact, the owner of my company used to drive down from Aventura to attend a play at the old Playhouse in its heyday. You would think that, if anyone saw any value in a Playhouse at all, that someone - a school, theater group, anyone - would be holding an occasional event there. Bottom line is - stick a fork in the Playhouse. Its done. Marcelo Salup was right when he said,
Think about keeping the playhouse. Where are you going to get 300 or 400 people a week to watch a play? Really? And, without 300 or 400 people a week paying $40 or $50, the theater is just not feasible.
In fact, I agree with a lot of things Marcelo stated and applaud him for defending his position with a sensible argument. One part I do disagree with though is the "Lincoln Road" idea. That wont work on Grand. Lincoln is a pedestrian street and that simply cannot be done on Grand as it is a major thruway between US1 and center Grove. It would drive traffic into the neighborhoods which would not be good seeing that they are more suburban than urban.
Swlip - you pretty much summed it up in that last comment. Well said.
The Playouse was solvent for over 40 years. The last few years the managment screwed it up.
If plays like Wicked, Curtains, The Iceman Commeth, Avenue Q and other big productions were performed there, the place would be mobbed. If musical performances were held there, people would show up.
If old movies (or new) were shown there, it would attract crowds.
At a recent condo board meeting, 7 out of 10 people present mentioned that they had season tickets to the Playhouse. That is 70%.
I am sure many tourists at the Grove hotels would attend events as well as the rest of the county.
Publix and Trader Joes are both intersted in the Grove and they are not scared off by the Home Depot issue, they see it like most intellingent people -- keeping the zoning laws. The City Commission is in favor of allowing larger grocery stores in the area and rezoning for them.
As for green space, wanting to keep the current "movie studio" operating, which is bringing money into the area, seems more prudent right now than tearing it down to put in another park.
And the Grove is trying to cater to locals now because the toursts are gone, not because we don't want toursts. And as for the buses coming through. We didn't say stop sending the bus loads of people, we said let them stick around for awhile and not for a five minute pee break. We actually want them here all day, or at least part of it.
You guys really do read what you want to read.
So its bad to have a big box retailer like Home Depot on the outskirts of the Grove but its OK to have a big box grocery chain in the heart of the Grove? Doesnt make sense...
7 out of 10 people at a condo board meeting does not serve as an accurate representation of what Grove citizens want in their neighborhoods either. Sorry.
I would love a decent Publix in the Grove. The one nearest to my house, in Aurora or whatever that street is called, is narrow narrow narrow.
I have never even seen a Trader Joe's, so, who knows. But, of the supermarkets that I know, I would welcome a Publix, a Ralph's or a Superama, which is a small Mexican chain owned by Aurrera, a larger one.
For the record, I hated the idea of a Home Depot. I have changed 180 degrees. The Home Depot by Milam's is great. Great service, Great hours, great merchandise selection, great prices. I stopped going to Poe's Hardware, after many years of going there, because, frankly, the new Home Depot is 1,000% better.
I don't think it is going to last, because it always seems kind of empty, though. But, while it is there, I will definitely continue to go.
If it ever turns into the disgusting pile of crap that the one in Calle Ocho is, I'll stop.
The Publix would be 40,000 sf, the current Home Depot is 70,000 sf, the one they wanted to build was 170,000 sf.
Also, three garages sit empty now, you want to build more?
Garages? Didn't mention them at all.
I would like cheaper parking in the Grove, but there seems to be enough
OUCH......... SO MANY BAD IDEAS......
Mixed use developments are just a way to maximize developer profits and increase city tax dollars... No comment about the traffic, noise, trash and infrastructure that only gets worse... Look at ''Downtown Dadeland''...
''Look at the volume of people and business that make up Lincoln Road, then look at our own Grove and, man, if I were a small business owner, I would certainly prefer the former over the latter.'' There are no longer ''small business'' in Lincoln Rd. It is now Gap stores, Victoria Secret,GNC, Starbucks, General Cinemas, MCDonalds ... No more bookstores, antique stores, neighborhood bars, independent stores and coffee shops...So if you are a small business owner they would kick you out pretty fast with intolerable rent costs... They do have few noisy restaurants ... Now with food so bad that it can compete with Ocean Drive ones, with screaming children, Key West like tourists... and forget about creativity or personality, you might even think you are at the Dadeland Mall...
Someone asking for a nice Publix??? LOL ... What is next? a Walmart in the Grove? I guess that is ''great'' ... Some people are happy with Lennar developments and Sawgrass Mall like commerce... Or these people can move to Midtown, Kendall or Homestead...
Len Scinto:
The questions raised here are all important aspects of community planning and should be discussed in rational ways. Mixed use is only a part of "responsible" planning. Responsible can mean many things to many people. However if we consider sustaining a quality of life that includes ecological carrying capacities in our arguments then a proper plan would call for high density urban centers that would support public infrastructure (e.g. transportation) while leaving "outskirt" areas to local agriculture and the environment (i.e. here it is the Everglades). However we do not easily come to consensus (as evidenced by some of the cat-fighting on this blog). We would have to simultaneously increase urban in-building while maintaining a development boundary. We do not. It is difficult to develop city centers while allowing suburbanization of ag and environmental area.
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