Restaurants, music, noise until 3 am?
An interesting thing about the Grove Bay waterfront project is that both sides, pro and con seem to be doing things that make people suspicious.
The lawsuits make you wonder why there are lawsuits if the opposing party is winning. It seems to make more sense to file the suit only after the election. What if the outcome is that the "no" vote wins, what was the point of the lawsuit then?
As for the pro-waterfront forces, they put their feet in their mouth every time they talk. Now they are making the condo circuit and their push now to the condo-dwellers who live only feet from the project is that there will be three restaurants and bars right across the street, imagine all that live music and all those people and at one meeting, Commissioner Sarnoff brought up the idea of a band shell next door, why that? Because now they are deflecting the talk from the waterfront mess to the Regatta Park next door, only the park IS NOT on the ballot. The park is happening. The only thing on the ballot is the Scotty's/Chart property. You are not voting for a new park, the new park is happening.
This seemed to get the condo owners thinking, do they want all that traffic and noise? All they need to do is ask the people at The Cloisters who live next to Peacock Park how they like all that activity right next door.
I live in the North Grove next to Mercy Hospital, which is a buffer between Vizcaya and me, only every night, especially now that the season is starting, we hear everything that goes on at Vizcaya during events. We hear music, dancing and even people giving speeches from weddings and events, so clearly, as if it was in our living rooms. The water acoustics do this, the sound travels on the bay and magnifies it especially at night. This will be the effect at the new Grove Bay project, too. Every night, with hundreds of people there until 3 am, the music and noise of people will be non-stop.
The project needs to be toned down and fit in with the waterfront.
The lawsuits make you wonder why there are lawsuits if the opposing party is winning. It seems to make more sense to file the suit only after the election. What if the outcome is that the "no" vote wins, what was the point of the lawsuit then?
As for the pro-waterfront forces, they put their feet in their mouth every time they talk. Now they are making the condo circuit and their push now to the condo-dwellers who live only feet from the project is that there will be three restaurants and bars right across the street, imagine all that live music and all those people and at one meeting, Commissioner Sarnoff brought up the idea of a band shell next door, why that? Because now they are deflecting the talk from the waterfront mess to the Regatta Park next door, only the park IS NOT on the ballot. The park is happening. The only thing on the ballot is the Scotty's/Chart property. You are not voting for a new park, the new park is happening.
This seemed to get the condo owners thinking, do they want all that traffic and noise? All they need to do is ask the people at The Cloisters who live next to Peacock Park how they like all that activity right next door.
I live in the North Grove next to Mercy Hospital, which is a buffer between Vizcaya and me, only every night, especially now that the season is starting, we hear everything that goes on at Vizcaya during events. We hear music, dancing and even people giving speeches from weddings and events, so clearly, as if it was in our living rooms. The water acoustics do this, the sound travels on the bay and magnifies it especially at night. This will be the effect at the new Grove Bay project, too. Every night, with hundreds of people there until 3 am, the music and noise of people will be non-stop.
The project needs to be toned down and fit in with the waterfront.
posted by Tom Falco at 5:00 AM
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15 Comments:
Now you have hit the hot button. A lot of marina tenants dio not want the noise and traffic and the residents across the street will hate it. Get a forensic acoustics engineer to explain how noise, like waves, hits the trees and rises up. The higher you are up, the worse the sounds from some frequencies, e.g. drums. The noise ordinance requires measurement of decibels at the condo balcony. An outdoor music venue cannot be compliant.
I would not buy a condo on Bayshore until this project is built, if at all. Too much risk. It cannot be made condo friendly. It risks cannabalizing Existing Grove business. The project is intended to be a destination. People come from elsewhere to eat and shop and then they leave. The will not get their car and drive to the Center Grove
. I cannot see how the existing merchants can benefit. When I go to South Miami for a movie, I have dinner ther. I do not split the activities between destinations.
The opponents need forensic experts to oppose this. The project has to be neighborhood friendly. If it is an entertainment destination, it should be opposed for to be successful as a desination it must necessarily be big with all the attendant traffic and noise.
C'mon Tom really? Are you that confident that the "no" vote will win that you are suspicious about the lawsuits? I am voting yes and still think the lawsuit would be a smart idea if I were to vote "no".
However, I still think the project will move forward and will continue to support it with the majority. I think its the best thing for the Grove and all you older people opposing will end up benefiting from. The sad part is, that your egos are too big to be able to recognize it.
This blog keeps getting bitter by the second...
This all makes sense! It's far enough away from Marc's house and Sue's house so the noise will not bother them. It will however be a burden for the rest of us that live near this project! Why has no one brought up noise before? Closer to Ron's house, I am sure he won't like it if he can hear the noise!
I agree this blog is starting to get worse and suspicious to me.im voting yes all the way.not that it matters cause the mall is going to be built anyways and frankly im exited to get life back into the grove.if you dont like noise move your ass to cape coral.this is miami not century village
How does anyone expect center grove businesses to thrive if more people aren't attracted to come to the grove? Anyone who is opposed to anything that brings more people (and yes traffic is inevitable) to the grove is more guilty of killing those businesses than anyone else.
The Grove is dying and there is not enough business to support the existing businesses.
So lets build more stores.
Sure. Makes sense to me.
Cocowalk
Mayfair (Planet Hollywood)
Multi-story complex at Taurus location.
Ritz-Carlton
Sonesta
These were all supposed to do what the current Grove Harbor project is supposed to do and were all sold with the same story. That their presence will magically revitalize our business community.
Same BS
Different decade.
Vote No.
We get the park no matter what. Voting no will get the citizens an actual chance to help create an area everyone can use, not just
the tourists and wealthier members of the community.
By the way, if anyone is really interested in how this will eventually look ten years from now, take a drive by Bayside. Grove Harbor is the exact same plan but just the Mini-Me version. Even down to the low level parking garage.
Just like the useless understocked Home Depot which was built anyway despite the false promises the waterfront over development is going to be an underused useless empty retail ghost town for the homeless to enjoy.
The Dinner Key waterfront is a complicated issue. It has been a work in progress for many years. I would love it to be all park, but the city and county can’t afford the parks, pools and libraries they already have. I would like Scotty’s Landing to remain with affordable food and a great view. But many of us would also like Scotty’s to have better food, improved service and cleaner bathrooms. All improvements would mean that the meals would have to be priced higher and few would agree to higher prices. Many of us don’t want a contemporary glass and metal structure designed by Arquitectonica. The city wants more revenue. So ultimately, something new will be built there. The Grove used to have charm and uniqueness. But we lost it with Cocowalk, Mayfair, chain stores and plenty of cookie cutter faux Mediterranean homes and townhouses. We are now also demolishing the Dinner Key Expo Center that has been a successful yet accidental film studio for the past eight years. Wish the Grove had never been annexed to Miami and that we were still charming and unique. But unfortunately that ship sailed long ago. The Grovites that are unhappy with the plans for Dinner Key waterfront have legitimate concerns. But they unfortunately neglected to express those concerns long before now. The Grove Bay project is planned by the same folks that successful turned rusted out hangers into Fresh Market and Grove Harbour Marina. I trust they we also do us proud by their next effort. Perhaps Grovites need to focus their energy on independence, seceding from Miami and positive efforts to form the Village of Coconut Grove. Find a way to make that happen. Perhaps, then we will be able to salvage and even restore the Grove to its former greatness, that attracted us and many others here in the first place. At least that way, we will chart our own destiny.
An independent Coconut Grove would be a world class village sans Center Grove Mafia
As to the posters who think this blog has gotten bitter: I actually don't think this blog gets any better than when there's an issue affecting our community. Tom has opinions, but he presents the issues and allows disagreement which I find very informative while reaching my decision.
God forbid, I'd have to rely on The Herald!
Haywood Jablome,
I agree this blog is good for the the grove but it needs to start letting us ask questions too.and the mall is only one thing.i want to know more about the new park.i want to know what are we going to do about free parking in the grove and if new bars and clubs will be comming are way bot the mall and cocowalk.and what has happend to some of the old club spaces like where oxygen was and st croix etc.is it true there thinking of replacing peacock park since the new park is comming in.i hear the plan to put another parking lot there with store fronts on bottom floor.
I am against this new development from an environmental and economical standpoint. There are too many empty storefronts in the business district and this new area is too far for people to walk from one area to the other. Environmentally, I am distrustful of the wording in the on the ballot regarding underwater land.
I have lived here for 11 years, worked in the Grove for a year and must admit that I rarely visit the area. To me it has always been a tourist area with so many of the same stores and restaurants that you see everywhere. Apparently I missed all the character and charm that the Grove used to have. At the same time, the business area is already showing a lack of demand by both retail businesses and customers. Law of supply and demand would indicate this development is not needed at this time.
Another fear is sweetheart deals to potential lessees for a several years and then major price increases and they all move out.
This is not the right time for this deal--if ever.
I've lived in the Grove a very long time. I patronize the restaurants and stores. Other than going to Scotty's a few times a year, I never walk along the waterfront. It's beyond me why the city has taken this long to do something about the waterfront. I don't love the plan we're voting on but I'd like to see something happen, anything, to get people on the water. So I'm voting in favor. I hope it will be successful and will lead to the rest of the waterfront being developed for recreational (non-commercial) use, like a music band shell. It's time for a change.
If the majority VOTE NO to the referendum, it will forced City officials to go back to the drawing table as well as to reach out to the community to understand the needs of the "NEW PARADIGM". Then City can "deliver" to the community a project based on a QUALITY OF LIFE platform and revenue driven. The mix use can be small scale casual restaurants, cafes, historical museum, community center, sport, marine,health-organic retail, fitness center. All combined I think will provide a balance connection between the waterfront and the Center Grove Business District.
A project that meets the safety requirements for cyclist, runners, walkers, for instance in a 2006 AM peak traffic northbound direction study conducted by Miami-Dade County Public Works Department , which indicated that the average daily traffic (ADT) on South Bayshore Drive at Darwin street was 28,657 vehicles per day. The PM peak hour traffic occurs in the south bound direction. This study was done before the housing booming, imagine what the ADT is now? It must be around 58,000 vehicles per day? Now, imagine the traffic grids the Grove Bay Development will bring? I am Voting NO!
I walked through Center Grove for the first time in a few years last week, and saw they tore down the old cottages across from the Looking Glass. How fitting. The Center Grove is trash, a perfect example of new money short-sightedness that has no class or idea of the destruction it has done. Which segways into Marc's view of making his home worth more, having a world-class private park for his dogs, making sure no one uses Virginia to enter the Grove anymore and ushering in more nouveau riche craptastic architecture gems like the AquaNo lazy, lazy, lazy fake modern piece. Then you look at Christabells, at least John got one thing right- he built a beautiful "new" building that will stand all tests of time. The Grove sold it's soul, and this is the greed devil coming to reap it.
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