Let's beautify the waterfront; dump City Hall
If the politicians are so concerned about beautifying the waterfront, why don't they leave the old Pan Am terminal and make it into a restaurant/museum? They hate the Grove so much, they should all leave and head to an office building downtown, leaving the historic building for the public to enjoy.
I used to like having Miami City Hall in the Grove, I felt we could better keep our eyes on our elected officials, but what's the difference, they do what they want anyway, so let them move out.
And for those of you insisting that we knock down the Expo Center, City Hall is right next door, which actually does block the water views (except for the politicians who have excellent water views), unlike the Expo Center does, which is not actually near the water. Should we knock down City Hall if we get the chance? After all, what's history all about in Miami, to politicians and developers it's just a problem standing in the way of progress and $$$.
The Fresh Market, Scotty's, Chart House all block the waterfront, should they all go so that people have a view? How about we go up and down Brickell and take down all the condos, same with condo canyon in Miami Beach, let's knock it all down so people can drive by and see the water.
Guys, the damage is done, stop being silly, if you were so concerned about the water views being blocked, you should have been here 80 years ago fighting it. The horse is out of the barn now, we cannot undo what was done. Should we knock down the historic Pan Am hangars, too? They block the water views as well.
posted by Tom Falco at 8:08 AM
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32 Comments:
Perfect! I was just thinking this same thing yesterday. That building is way too historic to not be a museum. The politicians (notice I didn't say "our" politicians) can move downtown with the rest of government.
Yes, even though City Hall is a somewhat "historic" Pan Am building, it should be knocked down too to open up the water front. City Hall belongs Downtown.Sailors club, Expo Center and as many other buildings blocking the view should all go too. Per the Water Front plan. Heck, both huge marinas should move elsewhere (Grove Harbor and Key marinas..) ---of course, that will never happen, too many $$$ interests involved.
The least they could do is what they promissed years ago: trim the sacred mangroves and open up "windows" to the water around Peacock and other parks.
I have no illusions, though, that's why I move to a top floor on a building in S Bayshore Dr., the only way to see some water around here.
CI
I agree govenrment does not need the view of the water they can go enjoy the view on their free time like we do. I am for the the veiw but before we take down the expo lets get the other two park in better condition fix those two with a better view let BN stay and in the mean time use thier rent to beautify the other two parks and not to pay for their own destuction. We have the views now it up to the commission to do the right thing. Maybe they can make an agreement to use the expo in their grand final epesode and they can all put in money and blow up the expo. and the grand bay hotel. Then we all go out with a bang. I live across from peacock park and it need major upkeep what a view from the small pier. Take down the trees and open the park. Also Sarnoff said in the meeting that parks bring in people like in NEW York. He needs marketing 101 just becuase in worked in New york does not mean it will work in Miami, We have to compete with South beach and other areas New York does not have beaches only parks....
city hall is a great place for a dance club
I'm getting tired of this blog and it's negativity. It used to be a good place to get informed about what was going in the Grove...
I think by now you should all realize that Coconut Grove is not a town, it's part of Miami and will continue to grow with it.Politics are politics, so whether it's Sarnoff or someone else, things will always be affected by special interests (whether economic or not)...it's up to you to either let it happen or do something about it.
Please feel free to not return "F," I don't remember forcing you to read us.
"City Hall is a somewhat "historic" Pan Am"
Its listed on the National Register of Historic Places along with one of the former Coast Guard hangers near Monty's, so there's 2 buildings you won't ever be able to knock down.
Sledge, your fanatic desire to have an open waterfront would have been useful early in the 20th century when the first of these buildings were built. The marinas will never go away and the waterfront will never be cleared out the way you want it to. Even if the waterfront was bulldozed, leveled, and completely rid of boats, the view from Bayshore would still be minimal since the road is so far away from the water.
I don't recall ever mentioning that I was forced to read your blog.I really used to enjoy your blog but not anymore.
My comment was just more of a constructive criticism of how your blog has turned into a rant. Either way, I do thank you for the time and effort you have put in the past.
And no worries, I wont be back any time soon.
Cheers.
Anon @ 11:18am,,
You have to laugh at the "historic" labels we have around here, like the "historic" Tiger tail road, or even the Barnacle or Ladies Club.. Much less the Pan Am dinner Key Airport, which is only about 50 years old. Heck, if memory serves, my beloved Coconut Grove was only founded less than 100 years ago, 1917, some places date back to just over a 100 years ago..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coconut_Grove
Compare that to real "historic places in Europe, Africa, Asia or the rest of the world.. Centuries old, with much more tradition and cultural roots.
But anyway, I live in the Grove and love the Grove partly because there's a slight feeling of "history" or a "village" feeling. We all know these "historic" places won't be knocked out, but the Marinas with 10 levels of boats blocking the Horizon, Sailors Club and the "historic" UGLY, 50 year old "Expo Center" should GO.
The Mangroves should be moved away from Peacock Park, and other areas cleaned up, people driving by or walking by would be able to see some water then, as they barely see
now only for a few few arounf the seminole ramp.
Will it happen? some of it, eventually will happen. When people and politicians come to their senses.
Good Water Views would be among the grove's most precious assets, if managed properly.
Comprende?
CI
Ironically Carlos, if Europe took your stance and knocked everything down that is blocking the water or not historic in your eyes, they wouldn't have all the historic things you talk about.
When you buy up all the land or bid on the new RFP for the waterfront land that is up for bids, you can then knock down everything in site.
Until then, you have had your say. No more comments please. Now I remember why I stopped the comments so long ago. It always ends up in nonsense arguments.
Actually, the Pan Am terminal building was built in 1938. No sense in comparing the Grove to Europe. Obviously they have older and more historic places over there.
"Guys, the damage is done, stop being silly..."
You said it yourself! The damage is done.
S0 what I don't understand is that when someone does come up with a plan to save/perserve/protect genuine public property that we can all enjoy--regardless whether we live in Grosvenor House or West Grove or Bridgeport Street-- it's either ignored or picked apart by the party of "no" in the Grove who are more interested in turning the clock back to 1970; current economic conditions be damned!
Al Crespo was correct in an earlier post. Too many people here are distracted by half a dozen (old) trees or a cable t.v. show for there to be any real leadership here. Enter Sarnoff. He has a plan, he was reelected, and the plan is coming to fruition.
Meanwhile, the Village Council is going spend time tomorrow evening talking about Burn Notice.
Please please please please PEEEEAAASSE don't shut down the comments Grapevine!!
Even though I disagree with Carlos's extremism as far as his OMGWTFBBQ "Open the water views and what is a berely concealed personal agenda, I think that you have a very important niche here that no one else has (or , unfortunately, wants).
If we (Grovites) had this resource back in the 80's perhaps the Grove would be much different now. Peacock Park might still have the three (four?) pavilions and BBQ pits and the open view of the water (and a beach, yes Peacock actuall used to have a beach) and the parasites that were built in the Grove to take advantage of the money that came thru here in the pockets of the tourists who wanted to see what the hubbub was about might never have taken root.
Whether you know, realize or accept it, your little corner of the Internet here has become an officially unofficial resource for many of us. I realize and I hope others do as well, that writing the articles, researching the info and going thru the posts so this doesn't turn into YouTube comments is a labor of love and takes time. Thank you Grapevine. :)
Carlos, that ugly, worthless building has quite a bit of history to it and could bring a great deal of business to the Grove if it's full potential as a concert hall and showplace was harnessed instead of blocked.
If you really feel that parks are important to you and the community how about giving a little attention to the ones we have? Like, oh.. I don't know... maybe bathrooms at Peacock? Seeing parents take their kids off to a side to urinate against a tree or the baseball and kickball players running to the mangroves to take a leak leaves me gobsmacked! Peacock Park has quite a history as well, you know?
Fix what we have!
Verstehen?
Also, I'd like to point out that the picture representing the Grove in your wiki link is a beautiful tree over on La Playa by El Prado.
Old Fart
i think F. is sarnoff undercover on this site.the truth hurts buddie LOL now log off and dont come back
I enjoy Falco's "rants" and enjoy the Grapevine everyday. If people don't like the website, then don't read it.
Keep up the good work Falco!
" Anonymous said...
i think F. is sarnoff undercover on this site.the truth hurts buddie LOL now log off and dont come back"
And it's comments like these that leave this site somewhat lacking when it comes to substantive debate about the issues.
If you don't want debate or the actual news and views, there are websites like icoconutgrove or the BID site or the Chamber, where you can get all goodness and light that you want. They only post happy things and events.
That's where people should go if their sensibilities cannot bear commentary that is important.
If you want commentary, news and views and you want it daily, this is where you should be. Your choice, no one is making anyone read anything they don't want to. You are not forced to read us. Honestly, if you are clutching your pearls right now, we don't want you here. We aren't for you.
Nothing "extreme" about my views.. So sue me if I like very rare, awesome Water views with boats, sunsets and a vast horizon where sky and water meet.
As opposed to concrete buildings, forklifs and ugly old structures like the "expo center".
Most people happen to like Natural scenarios with Water, when available, instead of private buildings and business blocking the precious waterfront.
Yes, I do know Peacock Park used to have an awesome Water View (you can see it now only if you crawl behind the overgrown mangroves, and a "beach" too,, heck I kayak the area down to Grove Isle all the time. (rentals at Shake a leg)
I generally disagree: the more water regular tourists and visitors and potential new residents could see, the more value and business for the Grove.
A TV movie does generate some revenue, but only for a minority of people, who then go to South Beach or Key Biscayne if they want to enjoy the Water front areas.
You know what Weston, Brickel or Coral Gables or Pinecrest or Kendall or Downtown do not have? recoverable Bayfront property. Prime real estate by the Bay.
The Grove would Stand Out if the average visitor could see more water, boats and views from the sidewalk or driving by: they would stop and fill the restaurants. Even road cyclists can't see any water. We go to Key Biscayne, it's safer and nicer views.
I'm done with the subject.
CI
Re: undercover Sarnoff
Perhaps Anon 2:16's does need to ease back on the caffeine a wee, but if you don't think that someone in his office is tasked to keep an eye on this (and several others) then you are being naive.
Even more naive to think that politicians and investors don't have shills that monitor boards like these to weigh public opinion and, by commenting, sway public opinion or when that fails, changing the subject. Especially where their $ or power is at stake.
Now, what were we talking about again?
Tearing down City Hall?
OF
Sarnoff and the Miami's LBAORG would love to knock everything down and build silly ugly things, anything is possible, City Hall, Barnacle, Vizcaya, name it, heck Eiffel tower if they could get their hands on. In the commissions debates last year it was mentioned by Donna Milo that 120 acres of parks had to be built when all the senseless apartment construction were being done in Sarnoff's first tenure to make up for City's green space mandates. Now that the city has been raided and bankrupt they all want to kick out money making businesses to build parks? How about telling the powerful LBA to make its members cough up the money to build the 120 acres they owe us from last decade. It is funny that Sarnoff's 4.1% "constituents" want to shut down every source that disseminates information, keep up the good work Grape, expose them idiots and the helpful idiots too.
Anyone remember the letter Sarnoff's office sent Tom a few years back because someone left a comment signed with his name?
PARKING FOR EVENTS IN THE PARK? THAT SHOULD BE THE NUMBER ONE TOPIC OF DISCUSSION! DRIVE BY KENNEDY PARK ON A SATURDAY AND SEE THE SITUATION THERE WITH NOT ENOUGH PARKING. GREAT TO HAVE PARKS, BUT WASTED IF NO ONE CAN FIND A PARKING PLACE. SO WHERE WILL THE PARKING SPACES BE? IS THAT WHAT WE'LL SEE FROM THE ROAD INSTEAD OF THE WATER, OR WILL THERE BE ONE LOVELY PARKING BUILDING LIKE THE ONE ON THE CAUSEWAY TO SOUTH BEACH WITH ALL THE PLANTS OBSCURING THE FACE IT'S A PARKING BUILDING. WHEN THERE ARE BIG EVENTS IN PEACOCK PARK, IT'S DIFFICULT TO FIND PARKING.
There are several different multi-story garages in the Grove. The issue isn't parking spaces. The issue is the price. It's a relative monopoly and I personally think the current rates cause people to avoid the area but that's a different subject.
And the topic was waterfront views vs status quo.
Please stop yelling.
"Even more naive to think that politicians and investors don't have shills that monitor boards like these to weigh public opinion and, by commenting, sway public opinion or when that fails, changing the subject."
So whoever disagrees with the proponderence of comments on this site is a shill?
All things being equal, I'm sure the Village Council has some shills who post as well, so let's just call this the shillspot.
Anon 5:58-
Nice attempt at building a straw man argument and I have to applaud your brave leap in logic from my statement that, though the original post was a bit nuts, there are people who monitor these boards, and turning it by putting the words "all who disagree are shills" in my mouth.
I was posting a response to a post that complained about this site because of what another post said, much the same as you are doing here.
If the preponderance of comments on this site disagree with what the local politicians are pushing doesn't that make you wonder who is telling the politicos what to do if not the local majority?
What I said can be applied to any politically charged site, not just this one.
You seem very concerned that I mentioned shills and those who would add to the noise to signal ratio while at the same time you make a false presentation and translation of my comment which in no way resembled what I actually said and then proceeded to insult this site itself for what some random posters said.
The whole while moving us away from the actual issue into some ad hominem dead end.
Now why would I think there are shills out there. ;)
(adjusts hat made of tinfoil palm fronds to a jaunty angle)
G'night. ;)
Be carefull suckoff is watching LOL
Up off of NE 79 Street, Marine Max is trying to take over a riparian access to the Little River and rezone an apartment building that they have been using illegally for 5 years into a commercials space most likely build a 5 story dry dock. The neighbors have been fighting it. Sarnoff has signaled that he wants to give Marine Max evrything because he is afraid they will leave and we will lose jobs. So, why is he willing to kick out Burn Notice which contributes a lot more revenue and jobs to the city than Marine Max ever will? Marine Max ain't going anywhere, mr. Sarnoff. Their Little River operation is the most profitable one in all of their 50+ marinas and retail operations try have. Just read their financial reports.
Why doesn't anyone ever listen to me? Replace Scotty's with Jimmy Buffett's Margaritaville! Problem solved, tourist and local money pouring in, and a natural fit for the Grove.
jimmy buffets margaritaville would be awesome in the grove
It would, but there's so much anti-chain sentiment around here, the locals would hate it.
There's talk of rental bikes and cars for the Grove.
why nobody will rent them if nobody goes to the grove anymore.so sad
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