Keeping the Grove Alive!
Some neighbors and businesses got together and have decided that the time has come for some changes.
BACKGROUND: Coconut Grove has been established as one of Miami's most vibrant entertainment centers, attracting locals and tourists to its restaurants, bars, music, comedy and dance venues.
In June, 2008, The City of Miami passed legislation prohibiting restaurants and bars within the SD-2 Coconut Grove Central Commercial District (downtown Coconut Grove) from serving alcohol past 3 a.m.
This restriction has put downtown Coconut Grove establishments at an even greater disadvantage in an already down economy, as they are forced to compete with the emerging nightlife of nearby Brickell area and South Miami, which remain open until 5 a.m.
The restriction is also unfair in that it is limited to only those establishments within downtown Coconut Grove, while other establishments outside the area of restriction including one within 10 blocks of downtown, are allowed to remain open. At the time the restriction was established, only 2 bars had liquor licenses extending to 5 a.m. Temple and Mr. Moe's. Temple has since closed.
Due to the perception that the Grove Closes early, people are going elsewhere, and business for all the Grove has declined.
WHAT: The petition is to request that the City even the playing field by allowing the SD-2 area of Coconut Grove the "same a.m." alcohol serving cut-off time as it had previously, and which still currently exists in other areas of Coconut Grove and the City of Miami.
All the City has to do is simply remove City Code Chapter 4, Article I, Section 4-3(a)(6) from the City Code.
WHAT IT WOULD MEAN: In doing so, it DOES NOT MEAN that all of Coconut Grove will be serving alcohol until 5 a.m.
All it would do is simply return the right to serve alcohol until 5 a.m. to the one single establishment left that has a license to do so, Mr. Moe's.
Any establishment that would like a 5 a.m. license would still have to pass through the rigorous application process required by the City, and residents in the immediate area are notified, by law, so they have the right to input on each case.
WHAT TO DO: For Coconut Grove to thrive, its businesses need to survive. TELL CITY COMMISSION to SAY YES to SAME A.M. & help keep the Grove Alive!
Please sign the petition here.
posted by Tom Falco at 11:00 PM
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40 Comments:
Club Space on NE 11th Street gets to sell drinks and other things 24/7. Many crimes take place in and around Club Space. That dump has neighbors who complain. Why not make them close at 3:00 am? Or just clean up the neighborhood and make them close completely?
Not fair to the Grove.
It's about time everyone woke up. This is the only thing that works (and if it fails sue the City!)
Congrats on those involved.
I want a sign! Give me a sign! How do I get a sign?
Why sue the City when you have such a receptive and responsive Mayor who is a "friend of the Grove?"
Take your concerns to him, that is, IF he returns your calls...
I'm 26 years old and consider myself someone who goes out quite often. I'm not against the 5am closing of bars but i really dont think that's the issue in the grove. The grove used to thrive off of college students and young professionals. Areas like Brickell are being flooded with young residents which is followed by new restaurants and bars. I personally live in Brickell and love the area its new and exciting and has a young vibrant feeling. The grove has really lost that feeling. Don't get me wrong i really love the grove and have had great memories there. A lot of the bars in Brickell close at 3am and have no problem gaining business. I think the Grove needs a new "nice" bar that would start creating some buzz. (think of yard house, waxy's, brickell irish pub...). Just a thought.....
Good initiative. Hopefully everyone will sign this petition, It's a start. However, I don't see how allowing only Moe's to remain open until 5am is going to attract the lost business back from Brickell, S.Beach, etc. I would surely end up there if I'm out that late on foot, but most visitors plan for an entire night out, and only one open place won't cut the mustard, when you have dozens of options open elsewhere.
How hard is it go get that 5am licence? I guess our Preppy Papa Sarnoff has some draconian, insurmountable rules in place. CI
Here's an idea for local Grovites: if you want to stay out after 3am, grab your mountain bikes, (using a tough lock and good night lights), hop on the somewhat safe sidewalks and head over to Flanigans, just a few blocks away at Bird until 5am. Takes about 5 minutes. Or just grab a 5 buck taxi. 10 bucks to other nearby open venues. You avoid the driving that way, and Preppy Papa Sarnoff loses. CI
Wait, I don't get it. There has been a massive stink about a 5am closure and how it has adversely affected business of the entire Grove, but there were only two places that even had a license to stay open that late?
I can understand Mr. Moe's being angry but what gives with all the other 'establishments' that are claiming no fair? How does a 5am closure affect a bookstore, or clothing store or a shoe store?
Some of these places were open back when there was a 5am closure and they didn't have the 5am license so why is everyone's knickers in a bunch?
The way is was presented I thought tons of bars were affected and went out of business because they suddenly had to close early.
Been out of town, walked into Crazy Pianos Fri. night -- lots of "buzz" there -- young professionals around 7pm, lovely to look at -- great piano duels -- what a fine addition to the Grove. We're old, but we'll be back! Wound up at the Coconut Grove Sailing Club -- my goodness! Must have been 100 people there our age -- 50'-60's -- wow -- great time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Preppy Papa Sarnoff" That comment is so nasty. He is our duly elected Commissioner and deserves our respect.
Info on where to get signs will be furnished soon. It is our objective to have a sign on as many residential properties and businesses as possible.
Thank you for your support.
John El-Masry
Oh great, not the signs again. They make the neighborhood look ridiculous.
Business is off because the college crowd has found better places to go now that the old fuddy duddies have gotten their way. College kids dont flock to art parties. They want sports, music, and alcohol at a good price in an establishment that doesnt resemble a toilet.
"Due to the perception that the Grove Closes early, people are going elsewhere, and business for all the Grove has declined."
Well, since you wrote it, it must be true! Any stats, numbers, polls, etc to back this up grape? As stated in some of the comments above, the other places in Miami have recently been doing a much better job of opening interesting and diverse rests and bars. The grove, not so much.
I actually am for the 5:00am closing time across the board in Miami because it is the fair thing to do. But, your attitude and language in the writeups on this subject make you come across as petulant and nasty.
Since you want everyone to be upfront, are you getting paid to push the 5:00am agenda???
H. Greer
Coconut Grove
to Anon 10:30 - PLEASE START READING THE COMMENTS AND BLOG POSTS BEFORE YOU COMMENT WITH A QUESTION THAT HAS BEEN ANSWERED OVER A DOZEN TIMES.
I apologize to all others for the caps, but apparently some don't read well. 5am vs. 3 am effects the perception of the grove as a whole. Here's a hypothetical, you and a group of friends are going out for a special occassion, and you want the option of staying out late: do you A) go the to grove, then when kicked out a 3 take a cab to Downtown or South Miami, then another one back home or B) just go to S. Miami or Downtown instead, and not have to deal with mess, staying out as late as you please?
The perception that sarnoff has perpetuated is that the grove has "grown up" or grown old or grown tired, cranky and doesn't want you. He has told the college and young professional crowd that they are not wanted here. The other areas have said, "come have a good time, we'll cater to you", and the grove has said, "no outdoor speakers, live music must be quiet and trapped inside, and you must be home and in bed at 2:30"
If 5am goes back into effect, someone will open temple back up in a matter of weeks. That place never got going till midnight, because it was a dance club/ music venue more than anything. Find any dance club in Dade that does more than 5% of its business before midnight.
grapevine gurl1 said;
Do you know what looks even more ridiculous than the signs?
An empty downtown Grove.
You guys dont get it the grove cannot compete with Mary Brickell Village, Downtown and Coral Gables. All the grove has is college binge drinkers.
All this mess because Commissioner Sarnoff has a 'grudge' against John El-Masry...Sad, very sad from an elected official.
H. Greer - I have done the research. Have you?
And in regard to your clearly confused comments that "other places have have recently been doing a much better job of opening interesting and diverse rests and bars", I must point out, that "places" don't open restaurants and bars, people do. So, why would people choose to open somewhere other than the grove? Could it have anything to do with the perception? Could it have to do with, regardless of whether you want to open a place that stays open till 5, you want to be in an area that allows for the same and is not seen as the most restrictive area in Dade County?
So, what do you think, Greer? Would you open here, or elsewhere?
You've got one, try to use it from time to time.
seems like allot of misinformation and unproductive name calling.Brickll does NOT have a 5:00am closing. Maybe lower rents there/could that be insentive to open places? The Grove is a great place but it is not perceived as a young eve spot like Southy Beach. There is just not the same energy.Lower the rents and attract more Bis. stop being so nasty
You are wrong,
Brickell does have a 5AM , check the hours of operations of Blue Martini, Zegafredo etc......
Sylvano BIGNON
greenstreet
Main issue:
Young People drive the bar seens. They cannot afford to live in a nice condo/townhouse in the grove. Instead they have all moved to Brickell/Downtown. Therefore Brickell is the new college/young professional hot spot. Times have changed people. The grove was so 2004.
Just called Segafredo Closing Times
Monday 1 am, Tues 2, Wed 3 Thursday till Sat 4 & Sun 1. Blue Martini said they are very flexible on their closing because it depends if they are busy or not. Sounds like these two clubs donot stay open till 5 am.
Go to Brickell Irsh Pub, Serafrados, Balans, Transit Lounge, Tabacco Road, and dozens more they are NOT open until 5AM but they are all eazy to get into, park and have a New york city feel............The grove has drunk college kids thats it
To Sailfast & anon 10:44;
I've worked a Tabacco Road for 121/2 years and I can tell you that you are wrong. We stay open til 5:00am, sometimes a little bit after.
I also work the bar at Martini during the week and we do stay open on the weekends til 5:00am. Occaisonally during the week if it's not busy we might close a little early. Don't get me wrong, I love the grove but, I hope the gove keeps the 3am. it's better for us over here.
The above comment is a perfect example of Brickel people, or wanta be Grove people. It is fine to read the Coconut Grove Grapevine, but please go to your own Blog site if there is any which I doubt to bad mouth us who live here full time. Maybe Mr. Anonymous U should start the kendalgrapevine.com so we can give it back to you about your serious problems going on there.
Young people cannot afford to live in the grove. That's why they are dissappearing from the area. The only thing affordable are run down condos/townhomes.
Im young and I live in the grove. I am seriously considering moving because the only place I could afford to live in is tiny and it just isnt worth it. Especially when I walk down to the Grove and no one is there anyway. I love the Grove and what it could be- but still.
To the misinformed anon 6:30pm:
"Young people can't afford to live here that's why they're dissappearing"????
You've obviously been drinking way too much center grove koolaid.
And just when did this phenomenon manifest itself pray tell?
Did I miss something? Did the rents increase so much over the last two years of this recession that it's no longer tenable for young people to live here?
Of course not, the rental markets have softened, rents are cheaper now than two years ago.
What's the difference now? Young people don't want to live here anymore!! Not with the new rules imposed by Emperor Tzarnoff.
Young people are moving out of the grove not because they have to, (It's $50K a year tuition at UM for Gawd sakes) They're moving out of here by choice and we all should have cause to be concerned.
Keep it up and we'll have nothing but fuddy-duddys left. This might sound appealing to a couple of the activists around here but will have a devistating effect for the downtown Village business district and in the end will hurt the overall property values of all Grove residents, including the fools that are pushing their "time for the Grove to grow up" agenda.
Wake up people before it's to late.
I'm a young professional and have been living in the grove for years. I'm moving bc I can't find a big enough place for the right price. Love the grove but will probably be moving to brickell soon - I can have a huge up to date condo and still have cool bars and restaurants to walk to. The grove just can't compete
You people who get offended by the anger and name calling about " our duly elected Comissioner who deserves our respect", cut me a break..you know who deserves respect ? His constituents...I and many others were affected by his sudden change of the 5am law. I lost my job and I have a two year old son. He doesn't deserve my respect because it is all under false pretenses. He hasn't earned my respect .The reason this has caused such a stir other than the loss of jobs and business he has created, is that people were lied too and now our intelligence is being insulted. Period. I could understand if he was on a crusade everywhere in his district to close bars at 3am...but for some "unknown" reason, it only happens to take place in the small geographic section of where he personally lives. And why doesn't he fight for this 3am shutdown district wide?...because he loses before he gets out of bed in the morning and that causes him to lose his re-election. My 2 year old could run for Commissioner against him and win with the platform that he tried to kill bussiness district wide if he went after 3am closings everwhere. The restaurant/ bar bussiness is the #1 place for non college grauduates to make a living nationwide. And what makes it diploreable... is how he is trying to gain support -he is praying on the fear of those with children in the Grove and warning against the drunk drivers at 5am...And don't get me started on the round -about he built next to his house and no where else in the Grove. How much did that cost the taxpayers?
People are angry..and should be. I applaud John Masry and support him as he held a fund raiser for our "duly repsected Commish" that I attended, then Czarnoff backed doored him and closed his 2 bussiest hours Thursday through Sunday..no doubt costing him thousands a week and driving customers to Brickell. get your head out of the sand....
Chris
Okay please let me know where in the grove I can rent a 2 bedroom fully updated condo/house/townhome for under $2k a month. It's not the price buddy it's the value. Yeah there's plenty of cheap stuff but they are all crap. Why would someone spend that much and live in crap when they can live in luxury in brickell and be around all the hot spots. I love the grove but those are the facts. I'm definitely for the 5am closing but when that dust settles you have to come to realize there are other drivers here causing business to suffer.
Thank you to Sylvano Bignon and John El-Masry for contributing your input and signing your names.
These two gentlemen have a lot of time and money invested in Coconut Grove. I encourage more business owners and all Grovers to comment on this blog and sign your name, making this a more legitimate forum.
This Grapevine blog has become the focal point of local discussions, thanks to Tom Falco.
3000 Bird Ave (one block from where Czarnoff himself and his round-about lives)has a two story 2/2 with a deck for $1300 a month. Not fair market value in the Grove?
www.miamiherald.com/news/miami_dade/east/story/1355074.html
Sun, Nov. 29, 2009
MIAMI HERALD NEIGHBORS SOAP BOX
Time to finally settle the bar hours issue
I recall Gulliver's Travels about a war being fought by two nations over whether an egg should be opened from the top or bottom.
Is this Grove Civil War really over a 3 or 5 a.m. bar closing? Is this Grove Civil War about one or possibly two bars and the extension of time by just two hours?
Commissioner Tomás Regalado (now mayor) voted against changing the 5 a.m. closing to 3 a.m. in the case of those bars that had the license for years. He voiced his opinion that those businesses (Mr. Moe's still open and the other that closed) had the right to be grandfathered in and that the city did not have the right to change the time which would negatively impact its business.
Marc Sarnoff represents all of us Groveites and quite a few of them have asked for his help in making the Grove quieter and safer with the 3 a.m. closing. They have a right to voice their feelings and Marc has a duty to consider their concerns.
Joe Sanchez voted to change the closing to 3 a.m. Regalado did not.
An interesting observation is that most of those folks going to war against the present 3 a.m. closing appear disrespectful to Marc, Tomás and other Groveites who disagree with them. They also appear to have supported Joe Sanchez for mayor.
A bit ironic to say the least!
If you really wish to voice your concerns about the 3 or 5 a.m. bar closing issue, then please attend the commission meeting in January.
That is when everyone will be heard by our elected representatives who will help decide policies that will be implemented and affect us all for years to come. You need to convince them, and only them, what is in the best interest of both Groveites and business operators.
Bring more then just your anger or passion for whichever side of the issue you are on. Bring facts, petition signatures, statistics, wisdom, common sense and some attorneys if you have them.
Let's call a truce, grandfather in Mr. Moe's, move on and work together to solve some of the other more important issues that we all are concerned about.
HARRY EMILIO GOTTLIEB
COCONUT GROVE
"What is good for the goose is good for the gander" Everyone should have 3 a.m. closings no exceptions. With the economy in the tank most cannot afford to get silly drunk and this would avoid and save our families and our babies would have milk instead of a sod of a breadwinner drinking it up at 5 a.m. and jeopardizing his job.
IN THE SUNDAY, NOV. 29 SOAPBOX, Harry Gottlieb makes "an interesting observation that most of those folks going to war against the present 3 a.m. closing (referring to the 2008 legislation prohibiting the serving of alcohol past 3 a.m. in the downtown Coconut Grove Business District) appear disrespectful to Marc, Tomas and other Groveites who disagree with them. They also appear to have supported Joe Sanchez for Mayor."
Come on, Mr. Gottlieb. You write a letter waxing philosophic with references to Gulliver's Travels, urging a truce in what you refer to as a "Grove Civil War" (a tad over the top, don't you think), and yet you make such a sweeping, completely groundless and polarizing statement? Doesn’t that defeat the purpose of the very "why can't we all just get along," message you are supposedly trying to convey?
There are plenty of people on both sides of this issue that voted for Mayor Regalado. How they feel about this issue has little to do with your own particular feelings for former Commissioner Joe Sanchez, so why continue to jab at that windmill?
This is an issue, not a "war." There will always be issues, and some of us are bound to agree or disagree with each other, or our elected officials from time to time. That is not disrespect. That is freedom of speech. And it is what makes for interesting conversation over a martini at "Mad Men Mondays," as you and I have done, for example.
As for appearing disrespectful to our Mayor and District 2 Commissioner, one of the best ways to convey respect for elected officials is to not address them in a public situation by their first name, as in your above quote, no matter how close to them you think you may be. There is a perfect illustration of this point in Miss Manner's Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior, about a state dinner during which a number of people enthusiastically greeted President John F. Kennedy by calling him “Jack.” When Attorney General Robert Kennedy approached his brother, he said, "Good evening, Mr. President."
Thanks for proving my point 3000 Bird Ave is a dump. Try again....
3000 Bird a dump? Thanx for calling the house where me and my son live a dump D-bag...Im glad you don't live in the Grove
And Mr Gottlieb, you have to be kidding me. I'm sure you had nothing but nice things to say about President Bush the last few years he was in office if you are a democrat, and if you are republican..nothing but wonderful Gulliver's travel stories about Obama and his great policies that are for sure working now...and they are our presidents, not a local comissioner. You are ambivalent towards the issue because it obviously did not affect you or your family. What about the families who lost jobs, and what about the 20 employee's at Mr Moe's and the 25 employee's of Temple and the other places that shut down...what about them? Did the Commissioner ever once suggest the 3 am closedown when he was campaigning? And what about the owners of the places such as Moe's and Temple and their employee's who have lost thousands of dollars due to this law? They are just supposed to now get along with your boy Marc after investing millions of dollars in this town only to have their revenue cut or destroyed by doing nothing other than abiding by the laws they were told were in place the moment they opened their doors .Now you are suggesting that they not be passionate about losing their jobs or due revenue in one of the worste economies this country has been in the last 100 years? You my friend , are a better man than I. If someone took fifty thousand or 100 thousand worth of revenue away from me and my family and the people I employed, and if I were a bartender, server, busboy, manager, hostess who lost money from that 3am law..I assure you I would not roast marshmellows and read "Gulliver's Travels" by the fire side with the people or person responsible. Especially when its his law, not the people's. The one thing that you and every other supporter of Marc on this issue can't run from Mr. Gottlieb is simply this...why is Commissioner Sarnoff not trying to do this district wide? If it is SO great for the people of the Grove, shouldn't it be SO great for the people all over his district? And the second point...Flannigan's has a Grove address and is less then 1 mile from the Commissioners doorstep. Why are they selling alcohol till 5am? (Could it be a major lawsuit from a publically owned company that would never let their door be closed from 3 till 5am?)...or is it just that East/North Grove doesn't deserve quiet and doesn't need to be drunk driver free at 5am ...cut me a break sir....
Christian
Changing the Grove hours from 3 to 5 will not save the businesses. Bringing quality to the grove will.
Grapevine October 02, 2009 7:56 PM
Anonymous said...
I hear a lot of complaints from "outsiders" of the Grove. Most of the complaints are "The Grove is all 'what have you done lately for me?'"
Case in point, the comment on forgiving Sanchez for his past voting record to now make a political move.
Let us not forget who were the TWO Commissioners who VOTED AGAINST THE 3 AM CLOSING.
Commissioner Tomas Regalado
Commissioner Michelle Spence-Jones
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