5 am bar closing issue was discussed last night
The Village Council meeting went well last night at the Abanico Theater, atop the Academy of Arts and Minds School. The 3 am vs. 5 am bar closing time was discussed and everyone had a chance to speak. It basically comes down to the residents present, wanting 3 am to stay and the business owners (not just the bars, but most business owners) want the 5 am bar closing time back.
Ron Nelson, Commissioner Marc Sarnoff's Chief of Staff, called me and the Grapevine out for this story, (Coming out of the Shadows), calling it disgraceful, and I have to say, I have always liked Ron and for what he did last night, I really like Ron even more now. I like and respect people who call me out to my face (not necessarily in front of about 250 people and tv cameras, like last night). But it's nice to be up front and honest rather than hold things in and comment anonymously here.
Elena Carpenter from Miami Monthly said that those who used to party late into the wee hours are growing old now and so they want the Grove to grow old with them, which should not be the case. Rightly so, she said self control and law enforcement are the issue for 5 am bar closings.
John El Masry, owner of Mr. Moe's, gave the analogy of having a house with termites and just tenting one closet to get rid of the problem. So if drunk driving and noise and late 5 am bar closings are the problem (which is the line being sold), why is only one little sliver, Coconut Grove, being closed at 3 am when the rest of the City of Miami's special entertainment districts are open until 5 am, 7 am and even some are open 24 hours now. Why not protect everyone from the nasty old drunk drivers and close everyone down at 3 am.
As Liliana Dones, Village Council member says, "Same am" for the whole City, and maybe even County.
Nathan Kurland spoke for the Village of Center Grove (VOCG). They are against the change back to 5 am and they have a resolution that says so, but Nathan personally spoke out in favor of grandfathering Mr. Moe's and allowing them the 5 am closings. Nathan personally agrees that Mr. Moe's was done wrong. He is for 5 am if the majority of people are for it.
One interesting thing: the Village of Center Grove consists of less than 40 members. It's amazing how this mighty little machine calls so many shots and they really are not very well represented in the scheme of things. Strength without numbers.
Trina Collins, was probably the sweetest speaker last night. She spoke of her niece, a college honor student, who loves Mr. Moe's and misses the 5 am closings. She asked that Mr. Moe's be grandfathered in for 5 am closings because the college students love it and the majority of them are respectable people who are young and like to be out late.
Gary Hecht, Village Council member, spoke of his recent trip to South Miami on a Saturday night, about 8:30 pm, and how it was so lively and jumping, while the Grove was totally dead at the same hour. He now understands the perception issue of 5 am and sees how it affects business all day and night. He said that the Grove has a failing urban core that needs to be saved now. And he agrees that the return to 5 am is a start.
David Collins of the BID says that the BID has made no formal announcement or stand on the 5 am issue, which is strange, since the BID is all about business and you would assume they all would be for more business, which the 5 am change would bring.
Village Council members Michelle Niemeyer is for 5 am, so is Liliana Dones, who talked of her youth in the Grove, staying out late, enjoying life and how the young people today should have the same privilege and choice. Felice Dubin and David Collins were not too clear on their stance, Lottie Person was in favor of the return of 5 am and emphatically loves Mr. Moe's and likes being out late herself. Martin Zilber wondered if Commissioner Sarnoff has the Grove's best interest at heart. And Gary Hecht, of course gave his great story of South Miami and his reasons of why the Grove should be open until 5 am.
Village Council members Adam Weirich was not present because of a family emergency and Alyn Pruett left early for another board meeting elsewhere. We know that Adam is for the change to 5 am and don't know where Alyn stands on the issue.
This sitting Village Council may not revisit the issue and it may be left to the newly seated Village Council in December or January.
Ron Nelson, Commissioner Marc Sarnoff's Chief of Staff, called me and the Grapevine out for this story, (Coming out of the Shadows), calling it disgraceful, and I have to say, I have always liked Ron and for what he did last night, I really like Ron even more now. I like and respect people who call me out to my face (not necessarily in front of about 250 people and tv cameras, like last night). But it's nice to be up front and honest rather than hold things in and comment anonymously here.
Elena Carpenter from Miami Monthly said that those who used to party late into the wee hours are growing old now and so they want the Grove to grow old with them, which should not be the case. Rightly so, she said self control and law enforcement are the issue for 5 am bar closings.
John El Masry, owner of Mr. Moe's, gave the analogy of having a house with termites and just tenting one closet to get rid of the problem. So if drunk driving and noise and late 5 am bar closings are the problem (which is the line being sold), why is only one little sliver, Coconut Grove, being closed at 3 am when the rest of the City of Miami's special entertainment districts are open until 5 am, 7 am and even some are open 24 hours now. Why not protect everyone from the nasty old drunk drivers and close everyone down at 3 am.
As Liliana Dones, Village Council member says, "Same am" for the whole City, and maybe even County.
Nathan Kurland spoke for the Village of Center Grove (VOCG). They are against the change back to 5 am and they have a resolution that says so, but Nathan personally spoke out in favor of grandfathering Mr. Moe's and allowing them the 5 am closings. Nathan personally agrees that Mr. Moe's was done wrong. He is for 5 am if the majority of people are for it.
One interesting thing: the Village of Center Grove consists of less than 40 members. It's amazing how this mighty little machine calls so many shots and they really are not very well represented in the scheme of things. Strength without numbers.
Trina Collins, was probably the sweetest speaker last night. She spoke of her niece, a college honor student, who loves Mr. Moe's and misses the 5 am closings. She asked that Mr. Moe's be grandfathered in for 5 am closings because the college students love it and the majority of them are respectable people who are young and like to be out late.
Gary Hecht, Village Council member, spoke of his recent trip to South Miami on a Saturday night, about 8:30 pm, and how it was so lively and jumping, while the Grove was totally dead at the same hour. He now understands the perception issue of 5 am and sees how it affects business all day and night. He said that the Grove has a failing urban core that needs to be saved now. And he agrees that the return to 5 am is a start.
David Collins of the BID says that the BID has made no formal announcement or stand on the 5 am issue, which is strange, since the BID is all about business and you would assume they all would be for more business, which the 5 am change would bring.
Village Council members Michelle Niemeyer is for 5 am, so is Liliana Dones, who talked of her youth in the Grove, staying out late, enjoying life and how the young people today should have the same privilege and choice. Felice Dubin and David Collins were not too clear on their stance, Lottie Person was in favor of the return of 5 am and emphatically loves Mr. Moe's and likes being out late herself. Martin Zilber wondered if Commissioner Sarnoff has the Grove's best interest at heart. And Gary Hecht, of course gave his great story of South Miami and his reasons of why the Grove should be open until 5 am.
Village Council members Adam Weirich was not present because of a family emergency and Alyn Pruett left early for another board meeting elsewhere. We know that Adam is for the change to 5 am and don't know where Alyn stands on the issue.
This sitting Village Council may not revisit the issue and it may be left to the newly seated Village Council in December or January.
posted by Tom Falco at 8:00 AM
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20 Comments:
I want to thank everyone who took the time to come out and give their thoughts and opinions at the Council meeting last night. Everyone was on their best behavior and gave each other respect and I think that goes along way in resolving issues. As an incoming Council member, it really helped me to hear what the Grove is thinking. I will say I'm disappointed that some major groups , both business and residential, were not there and I hope they will let the Council know what their offical positions are on this important issue as soon as possible.
Patrick Sessions
I have to laugh at David Colins-"The BID has made no formal annoucement or stand on the 5AM issue" Let us be realistic about that comment-the BID is controlled by Sir Mark Sarnoff, look at the make up of the board, and if David Collins made a comment that the BID was for the 5 AM closing; he would be un-employed and have to rely on his business-which is in the Mayfair (same place as the BID office-Conflict???) David Collins is a puppet for Mark Sarnoff- I agree with one of the speakers, if it is good enough for the Grove Bars to shut down at 3 AM, then it is good enough for the whole City.
After being at last night's meeting I am convinced that the Grove is full of great people who want to work together and the single one dividing force is Commissioner Marc Sarnoff who has driven a wedge between neighbors. He must go in order for the Grove to survive.
I'm fuzzy on this. You keep mentioning Marc Sarnoff why? Did he act alone? He lives closer to Flannagans than he does to the center Grove. I don't see it. Isn't Flanagans in 33133.
There must be more to this story. I have always believed in the history of the Grove and those that should have been grandfathered in should be.
I would have liked very much to have been able to listen to the comments made by what seems to be a cross section of Grovites. Another commitment kept me away. Regardless of my personal opinion of the 5am bar closings, I am curious about one issue; one I do not read about much. Other than the obvious businesses and their lost revenue enhanced by the early bar closings, has anyone asked residents of the Grove why they live here? Did they move into the Grove because the bars stayed open late? Because they want to live where they go to party, or once partied in their youth?
Perhaps living in the Grove, which believe it or not, always had a "laid back" atmosphere in the past, represents a quality of life-style that has nothing at all with bars, or growing old, for that matter. Coconut Grove, after all, is, as your blog often portrays it, a unique village on Biscayne Bay with a long and interesting history, one that is not solely connected to business. It is, most importantly, a place where people live.
"It basically comes down to the residents wanting 3 am to stay and the business owners (not just the bars, but most business owners) want the 5 am bar closing time back."
Actually I'm about 98.74% sure that that the vast majority of Grove residents want the 5am closings back. That's including North, South and West Grovites. I'd venture to guess that it's only a minority of Central Grove residents who are for the 3am draconian, arbitrary, dictatorial recent ruling.
Let the rest Miami and cities worldwide be free, and stay as late as they want. They know how to use law enforcement while having fun late at night. We recently forgot how that is done, everywhere, including south Beach and Brickel, or just north of Bird Rd (go figure..) so we now need Papa Sarnoff to dictate when we have to go to bed. Amazing logic. CI
Whatever the fnal decision is I believe it should be equal for the entire City not just isloated areas. 3AM for all or 5Am for all one or the other.
Maybe there should be a special election on this? Let the people be heard and everyone vote? They could do a mail ballot to every registered voter in the Grove?
Anyone else like this idea?
9:56am makes a very interesting point.
I didn't move to the Grove for the bars or nightlife. I moved here because the village was a village - laid back, unstuffy, home of the quirky Mango Strut. Neighbors speak to one another, there seems a strong sense of community here.
I personally believe that David ligitimately cares about the Grove...
That being said, he's in a VERY precarious position.
Trina, I love you.
John El-Masry
We're acting like our parents who probably were horrified over 3am closings. The young people need late-night places to congregate in Coconut Grove that they can walk to. Why put them in cars on the streets after hours? The Village needs the business. 5am is the lifestyle of these great young professionals and hard working folks. I am a resident. I live in North Grove. I have young relatives who live in Center Grove. I support the 5am closings.
What I really support is no mandatory closings at all. Leave it up to the Adults to choose until when they want to be out there; and let the business decide when they prefer to up up and close shop. As long as they behave properly. Why 3 or 5am? Why not 4or 7am? Open 24 hours is best on a free, advanced, civilized society, with educated, responsible adults having fun out there. Mimosa breakfast? Why not, Papa Sarnoff? Simply enforce the rules, have police out there, tone down excessively noisy places or shut'em down, fine them. And keep the streets clean, which, by the way, they are and were for decades before this stupid rule. CI
So, basically, nothing is going to get done until the new council is sworn in. I happened to miss this meeting because I had prior engagements. I was, though, ready last week when we had all the running around and changing of dates and venues. I will make it a point to go to the next meeting when this is discussed, and to the commission meeting when it is finally brought to them. Hey Pat, I've been trying to reach you, and I know Clayton sent you an email.
what gives??? I cannot re-draft the post you pulled, and I cannot imagine a reason for not posting it.
You don't owe me one, but I'd appreciate an explanation.
I merely answered Annamaria's question.
In short, re Sarnoff, he basicaly convinced the commission to vote on 3am, while leading them to believe there would be a grandfathering rule added or dicussed after, then got the votes to pass this draconian rule and quickly squashed any efforts to grandfather standing licenses in.
No posts were pulled. In fact, I was hoping someone would explain it here.
That Guy, you are wrong. I just read over the minutes.
Regalado and Spence voted no saying that BECAUSE Mr.Moes was not grandfathered they could not vote yes.
Sarnoff, Sanchez, and Gonzalez went to talk about nurses and drunks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVV5eFzs408
"Gary Hecht, Village Council member, spoke of his recent trip to South Miami on a Saturday night, about 8:30 pm, and how it was so lively and jumping, while the Grove was totally dead at the same hour. He now understands the perception issue of 5 am and sees how it affects business all day and night."
WHAT???
It couldn't have anything to do with the fact that South Miami is the closest place with a critical mass of evening entertainment options for all of South Gables, Pinecrest and Palmetto Bay while almost half of the Grove's 5 mile demo radius is in the middle of Biscayne Bay. Can a little common sense enter this dialog somewhere. Please?
To my Anonymous friend,thank you for confirming what I was saying. South Miami does have the ctitical mass of evening entertainment and is a thriving community, not by accident. It was planned for and beautifully executed over the last ten years. In marketing parlance, there this thing called SOM (share of market). The Grove does not have its share and will continue to lose share until we have a lifeless and crime-ridden community.We need more people on the streets, not less. Gary hecht
Anon 10:38 - The grove once drew most of that crowd. And you clearly have no knowledge of marketing or business for that matter if you think drawing a circle around an area is how you determine what business you can draw.
Some people are hopeless.
Anon November 19, 2009 8:52 PM, Please post that section of those minutes or email them to me at Thatguy@gmail.com. It would be appreciated.
I'm speaking from my recollection of the discussions both on and off the record at that time, so my recollection could be mixing things up, I'll admit. But your post is in itself unclear and confusing. Please post or forward the minutes that you have right in front of you.
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