Majority want the 5 am bar closings back
The 5 am bar closings are really turning into a hot issue, and it basically boils down to morals. Most of the people who are against it are imposing their morals on others, they are judging others.
It's not about noise, it's not about safety. It's about a handful of residents who want to control everyone -- folks who had their fun in their day and now want everyone off the streets early.
Miami is a late night city. It just is. Back in the day, we went out at 11 pm, many thought that was a late hour for just starting the night. Now people go out at 1 am, as strange as that may seem. Many South Beach clubs don't even open their doors until then.
And it's not that people are up to no good at that hour, it's just a fact of life in Miami. Why do many Latins eat dinner at 11 pm and not 6 or 7 pm when most Americans do? Should we stop serving dinner at 11 pm now, because the American Way is to eat dinner earlier?
Another issue with the Grove is the service industry. Many people who work in restaurants, hotels, stores and other places, finish work at 10 or 11 pm, they like to unwind and go out after that. They like to be out for awhile. Who is anyone to judge them? These same people who were serving in a restaurant hours earlier were credible enough when they were on "your time schedule" but now that they want a drink late at night it makes them different people? Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde?
If you don't like drinking at 4 or 5 am, fine, stay home. For those that like it, they are going to other locations in the County, they are bypassing the Grove. The Grove is suffering. The middle of the night is prime time for bars. It's like closing a restaurant at noon, because you don't feel people should be eating at noon. That is what is being done with the bars and clubs, while the rest of the County is partying it up, the Grove is sound asleep and businesses are dying.
The ironic part is that it is more of a perception issue and people think the Grove is closed for business at all hours now, so they don't even come for dinner now at earlier hours. The few rowdy people who had caused late night problems in the past were jerks and will always be jerks and trouble makers whether it is 5 am or 5 pm. A few drunk people upset a few sober people and now every business in the Grove is paying the price.
Emails have been circulating. Neighbors are telling neighbors that they must fight to keep the 3 am closing time. Ironically, those emails are coming to me from the very people receiving them, they are actually NOT in agreement with those sending the emails, that is why they send them to me, they are outraged at the lies and bullying tactics going on. People around town tell me to my face, that they have to "be political" so they "act" like they are on board. They aren't.
What are these people in the shadows afraid of -- others living their lives and having fun in Coconut Grove, you know, like it's been for over 100 years in this village?
posted by Tom Falco at 11:30 AM
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76 Comments:
the problem is the comercial area is blocks away from the residential area which was there long before coco walk and Mr Moes. And bar patrons cut thru the residential neighborhoods to avoid cops looking for dui's. At 5 am I am walking my dogs and as you know the grove does not have consistent sidewalks, and I don't want to get killed by some drunk driver swerving thru my street.Coral Gables does fine without 5 am bars, and who wants to be like South beach anyway
As an early morning jogger, I agree that the dangerous roads at that time might be the ONLY concern I personally have with the late closings... though not enough to make me against them, more just to make sure I wear reflective clothes or lights.
Anon 12:26's comment seemed like a respectful personal opinion. Who wants an "honest debate" when you get a response like that? What happened to the positivity?
Anon 12:26 - you are full of it. Further, you don't stop DUIs with different closing times. I said that from the first day Marc Sarnoff presented the 3am closing under the guise of public safety and reducing DUIs - HE WAS LYING, AND HE KNEW IT!!! He wants to turn the Grove into the Gables - I've said that here for years now.
You don't reduce murders by putting a curfew on a town either. It's simple logic.
the 3am closing killed the grove - that is a fact. There is no question about it. Every owner knows it, every patron knows it. and John most certainly knows it.
Take back the grove and tell Sarnoff and his facist cohorts to move to the gables.
Perhaps not in the exact words but I agree with Grape here.
It is a good thing that we live in a democracy where majority rules. All the homes around the business district are fairly new and the homeowners could certainly see the neighborhoods they were getting into.
Lets not kill our businesses in order to preserve our false sense of safety.
You could get hurt just about anywhere doing just about anything, so get over it!
The grove has always been an eclectic village full of spunk and spontaneity, yes there is a price you pay for the uniqueness of our village (such as dealing with the occasional disorderly drunks getting into fights, or clueless tourists or crowded streets during festivals) but the price is well worth it when you look at the freedoms and privileges we are allowed instead.
All my friends say I am so lucky to live in the grove, and I agree.
I can walk everywhere, anything I need is right here (except an art store!) there is always something to do and our house is everyone's favorite place to stay when they visit from abroad. Overall, life is good when you're in the grove. lets keep it that way!
ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH YOU, GRAPE. IT IS ABSURD TO PROMOTE THE GROVE AS A TOURIST DESTINATION AND THEN BE SO FAR BEHIND THE REALITY OF WHAT ATTRACTS THE TOURISTS AND LOCALS WHO WANT A GATHERING PLACE NEARBY DURING THE NIGHT. SO MUCH HARM WAS DONE TO THE BUSINESSES HERE WHEN THE TIME WAS CHANGED. NOW -- DOES THIS MEAN THAT THE BARS HAVE TO STOP SERVING ALCOHOL AT 5AM AND CAN REMAIN OPEN FOR AWHILE OR THAT THEY ARE SHUTTERED AT 5AM?
Re: anon 12:26
Here's some food for thought....
It's amazing that you're still alive!! Not sure if your aware but Flanagans, which is a stone's throw away from you, is and has been serving alcohol til 5AM. It must be harrowing dodging all those DUI's while walking your dogs(at 5AM) yea right. According to you and Commissioner Sarnoff we should have DOZENS of DUI's on record just from Jimmy Flannigan's bar being open all this time. Where are they??? They don't exist. It's all a lie just so OUR commissioner and a very small minority of Grovites can dictate their "VISION" of the Grove.
wake up everyone, THE GROVE IS DYING!!!!
My husband and I first moved to an apartment on Virginia Street, then bought a townhouse on Day, precisely because we wanted to live in a place where we could walk to restaurants, bars and, dare I say this dirty word, nightclubs. Most people move to the Grove because they want that convenient walking community and its nightlife. Why is it that some residents then get bored or tired or old or cranky and forget that our commercial district is why we paid more to live here? They should build houses in MGM Studios for them to move to, so it looks like there is a town but really it's just a facade with no noise or pesky people to bother them.
I've surprisingly been catching some flack for my support of changing the law back to 5am closing times. I guess I need to clarify my position.
I don't think I've been out past 3 in years, perhaps since I was living in Europe. The 5am closing would not personally effect me in any way, shape or form. However, this is the right thing to do for many reasons.
At a time of economic crisis, we should be trying to stimulate local business, not drive it away.
Instead of trying to handle the problem rationally, through better enforcement of existing laws, we amended a law and drove everyone away from the Grove.
Regardless of whether or not the law is 3am or 5am, we are going to have drunk drivers, we are going to have fights and rowdy people. We have plenty of police officers here in Coconut Grove. If this really is a concern, our officers should be doing foot patrols (in pairs) around the bar areas to arrest people misbehaving. They should set up DUI checkpoints in random locations around the outskirts of the bar area to catch drunk drivers.
That is how you address the problem and don't stifle business. Not everyone who is out having a good time at 5am is causing trouble.
And to our elected officials: there is no shame in changing something back that isn't working. No one will judge you for doing what is right and admitting that a law you passed was wrong, we appreciate your pragmatism and respect for public opinion.
-Stephen Murray
I think businesses need the 5am closings. Also the business district should be alive and bustling. People that live near there too bad. You knew when you bought there what it was all about. When we bought our home we specifically did not but near the center business district due to the Thurs-Sat or Sun AM noise. We do live near Flannigan's and it's never a noise issue. I think drunk people at 5 AM are more careful. They do not wnat to attract attention as they are drunk.
I do not agree with the noise ordinance being changed in residential neighborhoods.
The DUI argument is pure non-sense: the few crazy people who drink&drive will do so a 3am or 5am. Many will drive through the Grove at 3am to go and keep drinking in Brickel or S.Beach, instead of just staying here, have that late night pizza.. non-sense.
The noise argument is also rubbish. It's the same or louder at 3am than at 5am. And unless you chose to live right next to a nightclub, there's virtually no noise out in the streets, except perhaps on the 4th of July. Ridiculous.
It's politics as usual: a minority of influential lobbyists having their way, regardless of the clear, overwhelming desires and opinions of the vast majority of businesses, residents and visitors.
City Hall doesn't care what 95% of the people think, or 87.79% anyway, regarding any matter, glasshouse, peacocks, waterfront, zoning laws, parking fees, etc, etc. The Grove's slef-proclaimed "representatives" at City Hall only care about $$$ and their own obscure political interests. Who cares about the opinion of the VAST MAJORITIES who live and visit here? Talk about pseudo-democracies..
Governmental paternalism is always bad.
Sorry Marc, but your not my dad.
I try to avoid saying never or always, but this is one case where it belongs.
I work at an unnamed bar in the grove. Let's just say that in the last two years, the majority of the staff who hasn't left is now working at at least one other bar or restaurant to make ends meet.
What people don't realize is that when an economy is in a recession, people start getting very cheap about their tippig---some have stopped altogether. This combined with the loss of the grove crowd is hurting us "in the biz". We NEED the grove crowd back. It's not just the bar/restaurant owners who are hurting.
Lobbyists? Don't flatter them, they are a bunch of sour people who will be out on their ass come election time. The tide has turned.
Ensign Bitters, Biscayne Baby's, Baja, Suzanne's, Stringfellows, and of course Regine's (where I at one time worked). Just some of the Great, fun, and exciting clubs that Made the Grove THE destination for late night fun. As said earlier, The Grove has always had an edge, a bohemnian streak. I am a native and remember in the 60s the Grove was a Hippie Haven. It saddens me to see all the empty commercial space because business is passing the Grove by. And yes, those 2 hours make a huge trickle down economic effect all all businesses here. One of the reasons Grove Real Estate became so pricey here is that the Grove was were everyone wanted to be for fun. As more business vanish, so too will the overall value of the Grove. Bring back the 5 AM closings.
If you have a dire need for alcohol at 5:AM, you may want to take a good look at yourself.
The majority of residents voted and decided that 3:AM is best for the community.
Get it on the ballot and the same result will apply.
Why 5:AM? Why not 6:AM or 7:AM? Why not 24 hour liquor sales?
Imposing our morals on others? Doesn't any law that limits behavior (indecency) fit your description on imposing our morals?
Tony, it is more than about the liquor and who are you to tell me I can't have 2 drinks in a five hour period if I want to start at midnight?
And can you show me where to find the vote? I lived in the Grove all this time, I don't remember being asked to vote on this.
"The majority of the residents voted"???? Was there a "secret ballot" that I missed? Tony, Im a Grove resident and you certainly do not speak for me.
More people drink and drive at 8 P.M. coming home from happy hour than do at 5 A.M. Most are dancing and talking and laughing at 5 A.M. not sitting at a bar sucking up booze nonstop like they do at 6 P.M. to 8 P.M. That is fact.
My father always said: "if you are not in bed by 1 am, come home ..." it was his way of explaining nothing is happening after 1 am, we as kids disagreeed because we wanted to have fun. The wisdom of the old and the curious of the young makes an intersting conversation. However, if we want to have a sleepy town, close at midnight, but if we want to be part of what we would like to think what we are: bohemian; artisitc; young; hip; mature; etc., than open your hearts and minds and change the laws back to where they were. If we need some sort of control make changes to what time people are alowed to enter certain establishments, so we spread the traffic of going home, many other cities have such rule where the closing time is regulated by the permit but one has to be inside such establishment before a certain time, and it works. Party goers will always be part of life, living in Coconut Grove or elsewhere, no matter what rules are invented or pushed ..
The vote was by regular ballot a few years ago, and the voters changed the law from 5:AM to 3.
I would never tell anybody how many drinks they should have.
Tony, once again you're a fountain of misinformation. This was NEVER on any ballot. This was done behind the scenes by our very own Commissioner/resident Mark Sarnoff and a few of the so called Grove "activists". It is in no way representative of the will of the the entire Grove community. Stop saying the very first thing that pops into your head, it makes you look silly.
A vote? If you were to take a reasonable poll on this and other Grove issues, the result would be no less than 80 in favor of 5am closings. At least.
And, Tony, most people who stay out till 5 are not necessarily drinking. People will drink 0, 1, 3or 10 drinks regardless of the hours. It's an individual choice. When Sarnoff and those mysterious "ballot" people graciously allowed me us stay that late, we were probably just hanging out with friends eating one last bite at the restaurants which were full of hungry customers, having a great time. That's gone. Thanks to a small minority who think like you.
TONY SCORNAVACCA....please hurry and get your PROZAC prescription refilled.....and don,t forget to take your Meds at night !
Surely there is data which will prove whether 5 a.m. is for the community. The police have the data. What about the property owners-----landlords and tenants? Some people don't want to be in an environment where bars are open til 5 a.m. and others love it. The people writing are making unsupported declarations of fact. I suspect the facts are there. Bad money drives out good----a fundamental precept of community planning. You should get the facts. Will an all night bar scene help or hurt the property owners who are trying to rent or sell----both the commercial and the residential owners. When in doubt, stop to get the facts.
TONY - YOU ARE DEAD WRONG!!!
This was never on a ballot open to the public. This was a vote of the commissioners only, presented by Marc Sarnoff in a manner, which lead several commissioners to state after the vote that they did not believe that they were voting to close all bars at 3am.
Marc Sarnoff tricked, confused and misled other commissioners in order to push "his vision" of coconut grove.
This was never put on any referendum, and to make up some story saying otherwise, makes you a fool or a liar. Which is it?
Hi Tuss ... glad you joined the fray and hope all is well with you and Terry! We now have a year's experience with the 3 am limitation imposed on the Center Grove. I can't tell you if there has been a change in the crime stats that were flimsy at the time the law has passed. I can tell you that the law has resulted in the closing of two nightclubs (one was not a loss and was the cause of much trouble due to a lack of enforcement of laws that should have lost them their liquor license), and has indirectly resulted in the closing of Christabelle's and other restaurants. People who used to go to a late dinner and then out to hear music or go dancing in the Grove now just start elsewhere and bypass the Grove, and Grovites are leaving and doing the same. Landlords with club spaces can't rent them because owners want the option to be open until 5, which they have at other properties outside the Center Grove.
I was wrong. There was no general vote. It was a vote of the city commission.
This was reported on the Grapevine on 2/14/08.
Does that guy or any anonymous commenter have the guts to state their name? ... No? ... I didn't think so.
To all those anonymous people attacing Tony, please stop, remember this is America and everybody has a right to have an opinion. If you feel that someone's opinion is misguided use some polite words to point this out. Thank you.
I am not a late night person, but when I am out later the more people with me, the safer I feel. Having the bars open later makes us safer in my mind. Its during that early morning period from about 3am to 5:30 when no one is out that I feel most scared. .
Hey, Tony, welcome to my world! ;)
Tony' I've been reading this blog for quite some time and this isn't the first time you blurted out falsehoods stated as if they're facts without doing your homework. You absolutely have a right to express your opinion and I'd love to be able to divulge my name but because I fear for reprisals from the powers that be I must remain anonymous. I don't agree with baseless personal attacks but some of the stuff you sling makes me wonder if you're not hittin the sauce way past 5AM...
So, isn't it abundantly clear by now that the vast Majority of the Grove and our visitors is grossly misrepresented at City Hall by Sarnoff? Or should we bring back the Peacocks, Parking, Waterfront, Theaters, Glasshouse and other issues to further illustrate the obvious? This arbitrary, unilateral, dictatorial, almost Draconian 3am closings is just another blatant example of this
terrible mis-reprepresentation of the Grove at City Hall. As simple as that. CI
BY HAVING POLICE CARS AT EVERY CORNER WITH THEIR LIGHTS ON AND ELECTRONIC POLICE ADVISORY SIGNS.
MARC SARNOFF HAS BEEN THE BEST MARKETING PERSON .HE HAS DONE SUCH A GOOD JOB THAT THE CROWD FROM THE GROVE MOVED TO SUNSET.
What a load of judgmental hooey.
Grape I don't want bars open until 5am and I am not some old timer hippy leftover with a grudge. I am young and I like quiet when I sleep. I don't want to hear drunk people carrying on, getting into fights, I don't want to hear loud obnoxious music competing from different establishments.
The noise argument is not rubbish. Have you ever lived near a bar? I lived above one and it was mind numbing.
It's a heck of a lot easier to pass judgment and point fingers when you live a mile away from the noise in the North Grove or South Grove. Why not ask the people directly affected by the ordinance? Ask the people that live within 1/4 mile of the bars who have to contend with noise and traffic in the wee hours of the morning.
Christabelle's didn't close because of the 3am policy. They closed because they were too big, too pricey and the food was marginal at best. I went for brunch once and I was one of five people there.
If people want things back to the way they were then lets go baaaack to the way it was... Let's lose the chain restaurants and bring back more art galleries. Make the restaurants smaller.
Why does the Grove want to compete with the likes of South Beach? This village is supposed to have a totally different vibe and it just seems like a lot of parody and finger poiting.
Majority? Who was polled? North Grove residents? Bar owners? Or the people that live smack in the middle of it all? Those should be the people that have a say in anything as they are the ones directly affected by the late closure.
Why don't the merchants hire a canvasser to go door-to-door and conduct a real survey and get the input of the people that count? If you live in Stewart in the South or Hilola in the North the time closure hardly affects you.
What is the opinion of 1000 residents that live 1/4 of a mile from the commercial area?
Move.
If you cant get laid by 3am forget it!
Len Scinto:
This is the same argument people had when the law was changed from 5 am to 3 am. There were supporters on both sides. I was one of the only residents at the Commission meeting other than bar owners to speak in favor of the bars being open unitl 5 am. My take on this is the same now as then...We don't need a lot of 5 am bars but we should have a few. Let the permits to stay open and serve till 5 am be reapplied annually. If a bar causes too much trouble don't renew the permit. As I said then. The Grove doesn't need to be all things to all people but it should have Something for Everyone...including 5 am bars.
"Have you ever lived near a bar? I lived above one and it was mind numbing. "
Brilliant. The guy moves right next to bars, now in the middle of the Grove, and doesn't like a little action and the nightlife. Pure Genius.
Move out to Coral Gables or Homestead with the cows and the pretty sunsets!
Anon 7:28 you are a walking, talking contradiction. You hate noise but chose to live ABOVE a bar? You are young but want the Grove to go back to the way it was before bars? Please, hush the BS.
The point is that the Grove is a tourist destination and not solely about locals. For shops to choose to be here, there needs to be restaurants, bars, hangout spots. If you CHOOSE to live within 1/4 of a mile of an established commercial district then don't complain about it and expect it to modify to what YOU want!
And one more thing. I remember the 5 am closings. There was no more noise or drunkness then there is now, just a more profitable, happier Grove.
A few months ago, I was asked to spread the word in my building of 142 units, in the Center of the Grove, about a meeting at the Sonesta to discuss noise issues coming from clubs. I sent an eblast out and got back 2 responses. Both said that night noise was not an issue but one did not like the mufflerless motorcycles that tear across Bayshore Drive, and the other did not care of the music that is played at Mayfair on Saturday afternoon. That was pretty much it.
I think it is a good thing that residents are regularly polled about how they feel regarding certain things. It is good to be heard. I like Len Scinto's logic.
I also think that Grape brought up an interesting point regarding those in the service industry. I recall when I lived in New York in the years of Studio 54 Danceteria and the Mudd Club, we did go out at 11 pm, and often went home just in time to shower and go to work. That is the beauty and energy of youth. It is a rite and right that should not be stifled.
I,M FOR 5AM CLOSINGS....BUT THE BEST WAY TO BRING BACK THE PEOPLE IS FREE PARKING FROM 6PM TO 6AM....AS SIMPLE AS THAT !
I think somebody should make bumper stickers reading
"SARNOFF KILLED THE GROVE".
Restaurants and bars are down at least 35%. (I talked to the managers)
from commodore to other places. it's like a ghost town. how many places need to close before we fix it? Just take a look at "SARNOFF KILLED THE GROVE" Thursdays.. it's bad... (there's another bumper sticker for ya).
DEAR TONY SCORNAVACCA.....AS LONG AS MY COMMENTS ARE NOT LIBELOUS OR THREATENING , ACCORDING TO THE RULES OF THE BLOG , I HAVE THE OPTION TO REMAIN ANONYMOUS. NOT LIKE SOME WHO HAVE AN AGENDA AND LOVE PUBLICITY.
Regardless of everyone's opinion the fact is the the Grove will never be able to be South Beach. Or take the South Beach Market. The people that go to South Becah do not want to be in the Grove. The Grove has it's night and that night is Thursday night. But even that business is down. Other areas have cropped up such as South Miami, Mary Brickell Village and the Gables to become more user friendly. The Grove will never be what it was in the 80's. In the 80's there were no clubs on South Beach, South Miami or Brickell. No competition meant everyone came to the Grove.
Face the facts the Grove needs to reinvent itself as something different and stop trying to be what is was in the past or what the other areas are currently. The Grove cannot compete, the Grove needs it's own identity.
The parking situation needs to be resolved, it is a huge complaint from many.
ANON 10:35PM hit the nail square on the head.....the Grove can still be a great place to come to..it,s not too late !
Anon 10:35 I think you hit the nail on its head, we need to try something different and reading all of the above there are only a few suggestions all other are useless utterings. It was not our commisioner alone, it were some of the big landlords like cocowalk who were pushing for the 3 am closures and now they have thrown out the pork with the trash they are crying. Let them lower the rent so new business can come in and try to start new life in a dead mall. Did you walk through Cocowalk, it is dead, the escalter is broken for months, it is a mess, empty storefronts, smelling parking garages and loadingdocks and common areas. If they lower the rent at least for starting business and cleanup their act together with the parking fees, we might be able to turn around some interest. The Grove is not only about bars and restaurants, it is a cool and happening place that is sleeping as no new blood is coming in. There is no shopping left and the unreasonable rent demands are creating more empty spots in the future. Put half of the blame to the greedy landlords who lobbied very hard to get the 3 am rule in place in hope for different clientele. They gambled and lost, now they cry and ask our help to clean up their greedy shit. Lower the rents; cancel the parking fee; and it will be OK in 2 years time.
as a very vocal proponent of living in the grove to the tech community nationwide as well as locally, I am all for 5am closings.
From a tourism perspective its a no brainer, people come to miami to party, and party like they can't do back home. Back home their bars close at 2am or 3am. they don't want more of the same.
As a local who lives within a 1/4mile of center grove, I also support it as I see too many businesses that are struggling. Maybe they need to market themselves better, maybe the grove needs to market itself better, who knows. Something needs to be done, and providing a unique alternative to brickell or south miami (both of which were not competition 6 years ago even) is a great starting point.
this is ultimately going to get lost in a sea of comments, but I felt the need to voice my opinion, because just like Tony and everyone who is anonymous, we are all entitled to our opinions. Regardless of whether or not we attach our names to them.
I am glad this is sparking some discussion, and some outrage, as that is exactly whats needed. Talk and then action.
The rally cry can be heard throughout the Grove, “Let’s booze it up till 5 A.M.!” Seems like there is momentum to extend the time alcohol can be sold by bars from 3 A.M. till 5. Not a bad idea, I guess, especially if you are new to the Grove and don’t remember the nightmare created by selling alcohol for the additional two hours. Who can forget the hundreds of complaints a night from visitors who were accosted by rowdy drunks as they were walking to their car, or the puddles of vomit you had to step over on the street as you walked past the stench of urine. Most importantly, I’ll never forget the notorious parking garage known as the “dungeon” by cops---who never sent an officer in alone for fear of not being heard from again. Think I’m making this up? Think again. This was an average weekend in our beloved Coconut Grove when local bars like Visions, Flavor, and Oxygen attracted the worst that Miami has to offer. We must keep in mind that the area that encompasses the Central Business District of the Grove is an SD2 (Special District). All throughout the City of Miami, the hour that a bar, club, or restaurant must stop selling booze is 3:00AM. Only a Special Exception allows an establishment to sell alcohol till 5. The Special Exception provision was eliminated within SD2, thus making it IMPOSSIBLE to sell booze past 3am. Once again, impossible. The only local establishment still around that had one of these exceptions is Mr. Moes. The Sandbar, Barracuda, Green Streets, Jaguar, Taurus, The Tavern, Boardwalk Tavern, etc must all stop the sale of alcohol at 3:00 AM. None of them ever sought a special exception to sell alcohol until 5:00 AM, and all were in business prior to restricting the sale of alcohol to 3:00 AM. The whole purpose of the rollback to 3am was to protect the quality of life for everyone who calls the Grove home. We all support our local businesses and would love to see them thrive. Trying to resuscitate a plan that’s already failed miserably is NOT the answer.
To the people attacking Tony and relishing in the fact that they can.
It is kinda hypocritical to attack and then state you cant say your name because of reprisal.
If Tony is getting reprisal for the very same thing!
Some people...
As for the 5am, I am for it. Though I do not live in the Grove, I only work and spend my money here ;)
"The people that go to South Becah do not want to be in the Grove"
Really? In my experience, for over decade after College we would ALL go to either the Grove or South Beach to party at night, all night, even when I lived in places like Doral or Perrine. Many, many times we would do both the Grove and South Beach, LIKE EVERBODY ELSE. Of course, thanks to Sarnoff you can't do that anymore, and people noe go to Brickell AND S.Beach instead.
"In the 80's there were no clubs on South Beach, South Miami or Brickell. No competition meant everyone came to the Grove."
Huh? And in the 90's, and up to a few years ago until Sarnof stepped in? South Beach was full of clubs, and the Grove was also PACKED all through the 80's, 90's until recently. Brickell is very new, no big deal. Your logic or lack thereof is baffling and completely unsubstantiated with facts.
Anon 12:04am is right about the special exception. This whole conversation is a moot point. Times are tough around here. Nobody argues that. Let's find a scapegoat for our problems. I vote for Tony S. and Sarnoff. Wow that was easy and I feel so much better about myself. Now the Grove is really going to improve. This mob mentality sure is fun. Let's grab our torches and pitchforks and track Sarnoff down. Nevermind that he singlehandedly, orgainzed the funding from our community to save my kid's summer learning program at Grove elem, after the schoolboard cut the budget. I'd much rather have one of the other commissioners who let us do what we want---how 'bout that baseball stadium! The guy is probably one of the most effective politicians in the county, not that that says much. One person is spearheading this smear campaign of a good guy, thats A.W. owner of a certain night spot that is blaming others for his problems. Way to go bro!
Sarnoff will not allow 5:00AM. He only pushed thru the law to put the owner of Christobal's out of busines for not supporting his campaign for commission.
The names of those responsible for the monetary death of the Grove can easily be observed because they appear on the deeds of the $150-million or so properties that were devalued by their association with certain public officials that lead to high ranking officials at code enforcement. Compare the names on these newly purchased properties to those who make campaign contributions and they are one and the same. After the civil war they were called carpet-baggers. Business will return to normal when they finish their purchases. I'm not talking about some evil deed by some cabal, it's just business as usual and its been going on since BC.
Sarnoff will be out of office soon so will all of his friends on the Village Council. It is a new day in the Grove. WE ARE NOT AFRAID ANYMORE.
ANON 11:01: that statement is false. I've spoken with the owner of Christabelle's and he told me he actually supported Sarnoff..
even threw a fundraiser for him.I'm pretty sure he feel differently now though.
Not true! No one, and I mean NO ONE can beat Sarnoff. He is here until 2015. Grin and bear it!
People it's called a recession, and we need to face it. Most of the stores are EMPTY,I love the Grove, but there are not that many decent places to eat, not much shopping, no decent clubs and the parking is ridiculous. The Grove needs to step out of the box and create new, interesting places to visit. Most of us like to drink, but its sad that its the only money maker in the Grove. Alcohol could turn out to be a very negative problem.
So my solution is better shopping, nightlife, restaurants and events and that will bring people here.
Sorry Anon: 11:19 AM. The owner of Christobal's DID NOT support Sarnoff. He supported Ms. Haskins. Watch the Commission meeting where Commissioner Sarnoff put the owner of Christobal's on notice.
Some simple math:
Grove - 5AM closings = quiet + (failing + failed) businesses
Grove - 5AM closings = more business (South Miami + Brickell)
Its very clear that businesses directly suffered when the 5AM closings went down. It was an effort to get rid of drunken college kids in the Grove who certain people didnt like seeing on "their" streets. The problem is that drunken college kids were the lifeblood of the Grove. They provided a base of business and cash flow so the rest of us could enjoy a nice village center. A body without blood...well, you know.
As for the comments about 3am resulting in less drunk driving, that is pure BS. It doesnt matter what time of day it is, drunk driving happens.
No one is scapegoating anyone here. Sarnoff proposed the 3am rule, that is a fact.
Nobody blamed Tony for anything other than being factually incorrect. He was not attacked, and his opinion was not attacked. Only his incorrect statement of fact was "attacked" or more properly stated, it was corrected.
Well maybe the owner of Christobal's supported Haskins, but the owner of Christabelle's, Mr John L Masry, supported Commissioner Sarnoff. In fact, he hosted Sarnoff's biggest fundraiser. Everyone was there. Even Manny Diaz showed up with his arm in a sling, prompting the comment, "who twisted your arm to be here?" from many wags.
PI/GC 2:31PM:
It is true, I know for a fact, I was there! Commissioner Sarnoff did have a fundraiser at Christabelle's Quarter and from what I understand from M3 events that put on the fundraiser he made out like a bandit( around 100K) in contributions. I also know that the Commish PROMISED Elmasry that there would be a grandfathering provision in the new ordinance and then turned his back on him.
RE: ANON 12:04
"Who can forget the HUNDREDS of complaints a night from visitors being assaulted by rowdy drunks"
Wait a minute... according to my calculations that's THOUSANDS of incidents every single month, TENS OF THOUSANDS every year! Or what about this... "The notorious dungeon" garage that use to devour police on a regular basis. "Do you think I'm making this up" ANON asks.. As a matter of fact I do! I've been told that the Miami Police actually keep statistics on this sort of thing.. GRAPE could you please shed some light on this delusional claim. Surely we can get some real crime stats from the city.
Unfortunately even with sound documentation of actual incidents the so called "GROVE ACTIVISTS" will continue the disseminate these outlandish LIES. Not this time guys, everyone's watching.
why is coconut grove the only district in Miami that close at 3 am, not brickell, not wynwood, not downtown, can someone explain!
RE:anon 5:44
Sure, I can explain. Mark Sarnoff doesn't live on Brickell, Wynwood or downtown, he lives right here in Coconut Grove.
BTW, just because someone calls the police or the commisioner's office every time they hear a horn beep, someone talking or laughing on the street or possibly some ambient music doesn't make you an "activist"... It just makes you a royal pain in the ass.
Why hasn't anyone challenged the
3 AM closings, as a spot ordinance? If the rest of the City of Miami is 5 AM, and even some parts of the grove are 5 AM then how can this be legal? I say bring on the lawsuit and file claims for lost income for the businesses that the 3 AM closing has effected. Even businesses that are now defunct may have a claim.
Which businesses have the guts to stand up to City Hall?
Bring it on!
Frankly, Jobie Steppe is standing up to city hall, pro se, and for $274.00, plus some typing. He's about to file a federal complaint asking $1.3 mil. They thought he was a dumb stupid readneck artist, and "they" the City of Miami, had to hire a private law firm, with 6 attorney's to deal with Jobie costing $450.00, per hour. The city said that Jobie's home was "exchanging emotions" and placed a lien on his home for $75,000.00. So, if Jobie can do it on his own, why can't one of you do something about closings at 3:00 AM?
Let's get our facts straight. John Masry supported Ms. Haskins on the real election, the one in 2006. Commissioner Sarnoff was not pleased with this support. Mr. Masry, being a business man supported Commissioner Sarnoff on the second election in 2007. Commissioner Sarnoff did not have anyone seriously oppose him on that election. Much money was collected by John Masry for Commissioner Sarnoff. Most of that money went to Commissioner Sarnoff's Campaign Manager's campaign company. Commissioner Sarnoff still maintained a 'hard-on' for Masry and he got even with him for his 2006 support of another candidate. Commissioner Sarnoff punished Masry for that support and did NOT grandfather Masry business. Ask around, Commissioner Sarnoff is proud of what he did. Politics!
It's not a "spot ordinance" because the rule applies to the entirety of Special District 2. The reason that Flanny's can stay open till 5 am is that Special District 2, ends at bird road.
Personally, I think special districting in such a manner is a double edged sword, it can control development in helpful ways, but it also becomes very cumbersome as it is in the grove. Even the zoning office admits that it does not understand many of the layers upon layers of special rules for SD2, and it needs to be scrapped and started over.
For all you people who don't want the 5am back, all I know is I...and atleast 50 other people who depended on the after 2 am crowd for a livelyhood.. lost my job due to some beuaracrats decision to change that law back to three. I was never aware of any vote. The place I worked for years couldn't afford to keep me and 9 others employee's on due to loss in revunue from the law change Also, for those so passionate about being against the 5am law, and those who changed it...why aren't you picketting Flannigans?? It should be an outrage to you that they are somehow defying Commissioner Sarnoff and this law..because they have a Grove address and are slinging drinks till 5 still. The thing that really hurts, is I am a single father and have had a brutal time supporting my son thanks to this law. So it doesn't just affect the drinkers, it affects the families of those who needed that income.
3:00 am is the current dealine for serving drinks. No legitimate stores and/or restaurants are open that late. A 5:00 am closing would benefit one bar. Maybe.
Folks, we are in a recession. There is no magic bullet.
anon 3:32
No legitimite stores or restaurants are are open at 3:00AM???
Geeze, I coulda sworn that Flanigans was a "ligitimate" establishment, heck they've got 24 locations! Never mind they're right smack in the middle of the grove literally right next door to the CGM (that's Center Grove Mafia, names being compiled and will be furnished very soon). Where's the vomit on their doorsteps every morning? Where's the used condoms stuck on their car windows when they go to work each day? Most importantly where on earth do they keep all the corpses that are piling up from all the pedesrians, bikers and patrons that are perishing because of this rogue enterprise? Cmon, gimme a friggin break. Your days of calling the shots for everyone in the Grove are coming to an end. You know who you are and soon everyone else will too.
Peter Pan Club
the grove has always been a long time haven for those who do not want to cross over the canal into the beach for a nip cap. I wish there where more bars. bars as far as the eye could see!!!
5:00 am or later, i hate having to leave at 3:00am and walk back home feeling not so satisfied.
bring back 5:00am!!!
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