Bring back the 5 am bar closings?
The return of the 5 am bar closings were discussed at last night's Business/Resident Liaison meeting. Village Council member Michelle Niemeyer (shown here) shocked and delighted the restaurant and bar owners by suggesting that a resolution be drawn up that should be brought to the next Village Council meeting.Many at the meeting were in favor of changing the time back to 5 am, including residents, who don't feel there is a noise or safety issue.
Eighteen Grove restaurants sit empty today, many landlords cannot rent out to restaurants or bars because of the 3 am bar closing rule. New businesses go elsewhere when they hear of the stipulation, especially when the rest of the City of Miami does not have this rule.
Ask CocoWalk's general managers, they cannot rent out their large spaces do to this "spot enforcement." They are losing thousands of dollars in rent a month.
All of the Grove suffers. The roll back to 5 am would help everyone with a ripple effect. Just ask any business in the Grove how they feel, you'll get an earful. They are all for it. While we are a sleepy little town, most of us don't like being a dead sleepy little town.
posted by Tom Falco at 1:00 PM
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51 Comments:
Does anyone not remember that part of the issue for the 3am closings was because of CocoWalk when "Visions" was a tenant. CocoWalk wanted nothing more than a way to shut down Visions early - they were gung ho on getting the 3am closing passed. Now they want it back because they cannot rent the big boxes. Can someone please let them know they cannot have it both ways.
i think this is a great idea.
i also think we should have better signage to point to places and point out taxis. maybe make the 2 spots in front of jaguar or sandbar taxi spots.
Len Scinto
PLEASE comment on this ISSUE. Preferrably not anonymously. this comes up at the Village of Center Grove Neighborhood Association meeting alot. As a member of that Board I am very interested in hearing what people think and want, especially the residents as we are their forum.
Thanks
It,s about time ! never should have been passed in the first damned place !
They should bring back the 5am rule back in the grove. We used to go to coconut grove for late night now we go to south beach or brickel. It was fun to hang out have some food and drinks meet friends now grove look like dead nobody is there after midnight.
City should consider changing the
3am bar and reastaurant close rule,
i think everybody will benefit from that.
I agree! When i first came to the University of Miami, the grove was THE spot on the weekends, now it feels so dead! My friends and I would much rather spend our nights in the Grove rather than go down to South Miami or Brickell...Where else can you get Moose juice, $1 jello shots or lounge on velvet couches outside? I miss the Grove I remember...I hate having to leave the Grove at 11pm just to go somewhere else that I know won't close early. I miss the days when I could hang out in the Grove with friends until we were DONE for the night. That's the Grove I remember..bring it back!
Perception is bigger than reality,when the closing time changed from 3 am to 5 am, the fun crowd moved to South Miami and Mary Brickel.
The perception today is that the Grove is no longer the place to have a good time and party.
People certainly have short memories. Don't people remember all the drunks peeing on cars and sidewalks? Don't people remember all the police calls and bar fights on Commodore after 2:30 am? Don't people remember all the plastic containers and debris polluting the streets every morning?
3:00 am closing is just fine.
Oye, if it brings business and provides jobs for cooks, bartenders, waiters and the street sweepers.... bring it on. We need the business and the job opportunites. Michelle, nice picture but you standing next to the lease sign makes you look like a realtor!! I thought you took on another job until I read the article!!
There is no law that states people cannot go out looking for entertainment at 6:00 pm or even 1:00 am. Usually the only people out at 3:15 am are the drunks and DUI's waiting to happen.
I happened to see Grape at Olav's and he thought it would be appropriate to the topic to take the picture next to the lease sign for an empty restaurant space (Anokha). Nope, I'm not a realtor; still a lawyer fighting for the rights of wronged insurance policyholders.
I hope readers know that Comras Real Estate specializes in leasing to national chain stores. Comras owns many buildings on South Beach and almost every tenant is a typical chain store. The typical chain store found at every mall in America.
Residents deserve a voice too. Don't residents i.e neighbors prefer the 3:00 am closing?
The restaurant bars that were open then should have been grandfathered in. Times have indeed changed and I do not believe the neighborhoods will be impacted as they once were. They are not what they used to be. Single family homes are MacMansions with four cars each blocking the sidewalks and no parking in the neighborhoods. Now the Parking garages will also make money.
The seldom occurrences of street fights, public drunkenness, excessive decibels, debris: that's all a matter of better law enforcement, cops PRESENT out there patrolling the streets, instead of hiding out all day around stop signs dishing out tickets.
Same goes for drinking and driving. Actually those who do, get on their cars to continue the party after 3 am, headed to S.Beach, Brickel, etc. The Vast Majority of Residents, Vistors and business want this draconian rule to end.
Please, please!!! Don't let the Grove die!!! Bring back the fun, casual hang out, close to home party place!!! In all the 20 years I've been in Miami, I've never seen Coconut Grove so run down and empty. You drive by on any day of the week between 11am and 11pm and is a ghost town. Bussines are closing and the ones that are opened are probably struggling to stay open. Who is responsible for all this?? Is it the City Officials, Community leaders??? In this economy we should be trying to increase businesses not decreasing it. It feels like a mass exodus of bussiness!!!!
It may be too late. The South Miami area is booming thanks to split decisions dealt to taxpaying business owners in late night council meetings. Every surrounding city is laughing at us on thier way to the bank!
Marc Sarnoff's vision. He has destroyed the Grove and continues to do it with his selfish dicator attitude. Vote him out people!!!!!
The city needs to help the businesses , there is enough empty stores, bars, restaurants in the grove.
Bring back the 5 am opening.
Today we have 20 restaurants , 30 shops close how many more before the city react!
Bring back the bar opening rule combined with free parking hours and business will boom again. The 5am closing rule should not have ever been approved. Bad rule making, the people who lobbied and approved it should be held accountable and pay for the lives they destroyed.
Never taxi cabs in front of Jaguar -that is not the scenery people want to see dining at a nice restaurant and outdoor cafe, they belong around hotels but not necessarily in packs, One cab attracts another cab and then another and the drivers double park and stand around and chat with each other. Ever try to get down Virginia St. with the two cab stands and other cabs doubleparked?
Studies show that between 87% and 92% of all bars and restaurants close within their first three years. The majority close within the first two years. Bars close. Those are the facts.
Now that we are in a recession businesses will fail sooner.
People should stay focused. Work hard. Don't stay out late drinking. Survive.
Do not change the 3:00 am closing rule just so 1-2 bar owners can make more money as they risk the lives of customers who drink and drive.
As a UM student who use to go to the grove more then 4 times a week i now see a Huge decrease in the ammount of life in the grove since the 3 am change.
Please change it back to 5am and save the grove
Eighteen Grove restaurants sit empty today, many landlords cannot rent out to restaurants or bars because of the 3 am bar closing rule. New businesses go elsewhere when they hear of the stipulation, especially when the rest of the City of Miami does not have this rule.
There is simply no evidence that this is indeed what's happening. Rather, we have a ton of new restaurant offerings; some make it, some don't. What we don't have is retail. You might want to ask yourself why that is.
This problem originally came about because the nightclubs were creating a very bad situation for residents and retail merchants. For example, when Visions and Quench were open, the businesses along Florida Ave routinely had used condoms plastered on the windows, and residents in Grove Square had bullets coming up through the floor.
Now, if the Zoning Committee actually enforced the law, there never would have been a problem. The special overlay in the Center Grove has always stated that no 5am license should issue unless the city grants a special exception. The exception was only to be granted if the use was not detrimental to the residential mixed use. Of course, no Zoning Board members nor Commissioners ever wanted to say "no" to club owner asking for a special exception, because - for some odd reason - they thought that "wouldn't be fair."
Back to the retail issue. The problem isn't that establishments can't stay open to 5am, the problem is that rents are too high for the actual traffic/market. You allow unfettered 5am openings again, and that problem will only get worse. Nightclub space sits closed during the day, and landlords won't negotiate with retail tenants, because they'd rather hold out to lease 20,000 square feet to a nightclub.
Re: bar failures, seems like a myth without much evidence. This study found a CUMULATIVE 3 year rate of only 59%, much more in line with ANY new business. A great many also close for non-economic reasons, which would bring down the rate of failure down even more if they were excluded.
http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/500800/
"After an extensive literature review on restaurant failures, I can find no evidence of a 90 percent failure rate anywhere," Parsa said. "My own research also shows that the failure rate is only about 59 percent for a three-year period"
"Figures that are not based on verifiable research only serve to hurt the reputation of the restaurant industry and perpetuate the myth of a high level of restaurant failures."
Sarnoff will never allow the closing at 5:00!
There are plenty of passionate Grovites on both sides of the 3 AM or 5 AM bar closing issue. So let’s put it to a vote. Add the choice to the November election ballot that will determine the new CGVC board members. If that is not possible then the CGVC, Chamber or BID should help determine what is best for our village and resolve this issue once and for all.
I love the drama queens who talk as if the Grove was in total anarchy with a 5am bar closing. Enough already! Public urination, debris, bullets(ya, ok buddy), and drunks all are capable of happening at 3am too. I also know for a fact that you are exaggerating based on police reports I scoured on all the above issues for the Grove.
The person who said it may be too late may be right. South Miami is booming now and has done a lot to attract the college kids that go to school right across US1. The Grove used to have that crowd until the curmudgeons got their way.
I 100% support the 5 AM opening rule. I think there are many initiatives that can be implemented along with the 5 AM closing time to ensure cleanliness and safety.
However, I'm worried by this blog and some of its readerships stance on this issue. Many months ago the blog and some of its readers were strong supporters of the 3 AM closing rule, and now there is a reversal of opinion? This worries me because I think there are other Grove-related issues that this group sometimes takes too much of a conservative/ restrictive stance on, such as some development issues.
Benji, since day one I have been against the change to 3 am and have always been in favor of the 5 am closing time. Get your fact straight before you talk. Thank you.
With over a year experience of having the law in place, what we have learned is that it is not only the handful of bar owners with 5 am licenses who were hurt, it is ALL the bars and restaurants in the Grove. The law sent a message that people who want to party and have fun aren't welcome in the Grove. Now they drive past the Grove and lots of Grovites leave the Grove to go out for dinner and entertainment elsewhere.
As for the drunk driving issue, if Grovites who could walk to our restaurants and bars are now getting in their cars and going to South Beach, South Miami and Mary Brickell Village, how exactly is this law protecting us from drunk drivers?
If these people drink till 5 AM, my guess is they do not have a Job to go to later that morning.....
I've been working in the grove for 2 years(as a server) usually at night and recently I have noticed a significant decrease in volume. I used to make enough to live and play in the grove and now I'm considering moving. Please do something to help out our restaurants. Nobody is coming out anymore especially at night. It is effecting our wallets please!
Forget 5am, let the bars open until 6 or 7am, that way patrons can stroll down to the park, watch the susrise, come back to the resturants for breakfeast then go home and go to bed.
(I'm not trying to be ironic, I actually think bar owners should be able to run thier business as they see fir)
Bring back the 5 am closing time. And while you're at it, bring back News Cafe.
totally agree with Diane about News Cafe. I think had they been in an area with more foot traffic they would have certainly made it. their former location was a huge hinderance to business
Speaking from the perspective of a current UM student, I know firsthand that the 3am closing time has hurt the Grove significantly. When I first came to school two and a half years ago, the Grove was the place to go to have fun. In class, the library, and all over campus, you would hear people talking about their plans to hang out in the Grove.
In the last year that has changed. South Miami has quite a few bars that stay open late, it is closer to campus, they have Sunset (which has a better movie theater), a bunch of nice restaurants, and the cops harass students far less there. Where is the incentive for students to choose us over them?
This restrictive ordinance has done far more harm than good and needs to be revoked so we can attract the UM crowd again.
-Stephen Murray
Hi, I work @ Greenstreet Cafe. Even though I might agree with the whole issue of the Grove not beeing the same. I have to say, it is still the same old Grove if we make it! Greenstreet is a fun place to be @ during the evenings as well as the mornings and afternoons. Maybe if the people that love the Grove as much as we all do try to help bring it back there will be more business that will open their doors till later times. The Grove still has a lot of un activities that have been a tradition for many years. Maybe the community can bring some new ones for the night life!!!
Giovanna ♥
Does the Grove need more people who drink until 5:AM? No, it does not.
I have been out on many occasions till sunrise and I loved it. Not once have I driven drunk or gotten into a fight because of it. Closing the bars at three am is actually effecting all businesses as people want to start drinking at dinner and not have to drive elsewhere afterward to continue to hang out. So they don't come here.
In a city where most people don't bother leaving the house before 11pm on date night, it seems stupid to instigate such an early curfew. I was never in support of it.
Stupid people and drunks happen at all hours of the day and law enforcement is there to take care of these.
With the bards closing early and the theater temporarily gone, the grove is a dead zone, no one has a reason to come here and pay our extraordinary parking fees only to be kicked out just when the party gets going.
I am a grove resident and I am supporting the 5am closing time.
If people don't like the noise they can buy their homes in more secluded neighborhoods.
I live walking distance from coco walk and honestly the only noise that bothers me is coming from my neighbors around 3am when the party moves to their living rooms instead of staying in the bars where they belong.
Re: Tony Scornavacca....
Tony, you present a very strong, well thought out and compelling argument...
well not really
The restaurants closed because they were not supported by the residents, not because the closing time was changed from 5 am to 3 am. And let's not forget that we are in the worst recession since the Great Depression, that may have played a part in this. How many Grove residents really stay out drinking until 5 AM?
The 3:AM law was enacted because the residents decided it was best for the community.
Selling alcohol til 5:AM benefits one person: the bar owner.
Residents want more successful businesses here. Five o'clock bars are not likely to solve that problem.
Drinking til 5:AM is not the recipe for a strong, productive community.
Nobody's life will be less enjoyable if they leave a bar at 3:AM.
I think the most compelling argument would be a list of grove businesses that have closed their doors since the law has been in place. Lepruchauns, Senior Frogs, the pizza stand next to Sandbar, Christabelle's, the pizza place next to Christabelle's, Tu Tu tango's(before?), coyote ugly, flavor, and im sure there are alot more. as a UM student i know that if those places were still here, more people would come to the grove.
Re: Tony Scornavacca,
Tony, once again you're off the mark. Making the sale of alcohol available til 5am does benefit Coconut Grove and certainly has a "ripple effect" for the entire business community and hence the resedential sector.It's business 101. You needn't look any further than the rest of the City of Miami.
Take Mary Brickell, South Miami, Downtown, Design District all have bars and restaurants that stay open til 5AM. Take a look at what they just did in Midtown, OUR Commissioner "signed off" on a "Special Entertainment District"that allows the placement of 5Am licenses, Why you might ask? Because wheather you like it or not restaurants and Bars are the building blocks for a fledgling business community. I don't see city officials rushing to put in yogurt shops and shoe stores...
If someone is drinking until 5:00 am then somehow getting home how effective are they going to be at 9:00 am?
Steve Murray, thanks for telling us you want bars to stay open til 5am, for those of us who are in favor of 3:00 am closings that helps us decide who to vote for in the Village Council elections.
Effective at 9am - how about the drinkers driving home from a 5 am closing with bikers and runners on our Coconut Grove streets, scary thought. How about the people driving to work for early shifts, Scarier.
Can't have fun without boozing all night? Boo hoo. Jack up health insurance for these alcoholics.
Wait a minute... Don't people ride their bikes, jog, drve to work and walk their dogs in downtown, Mary Brickell, Midtown and virtually everywhere eles in the City of Miami????? Where's all these bicyclists, pedestrian and drunk drivers that are being injured and killed due to these renegade merchants. I know for a FACT that South Miami ,who's taken a large share of our market, has had no increase of these incidents since they started letting Restaurants & Bars stay open til 5:00AM. STOP THE SCARE TACTICS!!! The statistics are available for all to see. Please don't let the will of a "handful" of residents in the center Grove dictate how hundreds of thousands of people experience the Grove!!!
What a bunch of B.S.... On many occasions I've been on the streets of Coconut Grove after 5:00AM and the notion of these hoards of people riding bikes and jogging is a MYTH!!! Maybe at 6:30AM-7:00AM you'll start to see some cyclists or an occasional jogger but by that time people have long since left the Grove. Where's all the police statistics to support this perpetuated lie of citizen being in grave danger often told by the very same people that wish to turn the Grove into "Century Village"??
A jogger or bicyclist on the street at 5 or 6 am is more likely to be run down by a Grovite driving home drunk from South Miami or Brickell or South Beach than by a Grovite walking home drunk from Commodore Plaza or CocoWalk.
With regard to drunk driving, all this law had done is put Grovites in their cars, and taken their money from the Grove along with that of lots of other people who used to come here. It isn't "protecting" anybody. I used to run through the Center Grove to South Bayshore at 5:30 or 6:00 a.m. every day including some weekend days while there were still 5 am closings. Never saw this scary element that's being thrown out as such a terrible threat.
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