Chart House-Bayside; that's the ticket
A reader sent this in. He will remain anonymous and this is verbatim:
"Here's a file (click here for a PDF) which I put together in early 2008 to suggest that some shenanigan's seemed to be afoot with the Grove Key Marina property just inland from Charthouse/Scotty's Landing parcel. At the time I was curious about apparent back taxes, not any prospect of new projects.
As I recall, Commissioner Marc Sarnoff's office looked into the matter with City staff and reported the following: At the time of the original lease, the property was thought to be exempt from taxes because it actually belonged to the City and was merely sub-leased to the current tenants. Somewhere along the line after the inception of the lease, the State of Florida decided that otherwise tax-exempt municipal properties that were leased to profit-making businesses were in fact taxable. (I suspect that this issue may have also figured in the back tax flap which accompanied the "sale" of Monty's early in the Mayor Manny Diaz administration.)
In any case, Grove Key Marina was not technically on the hook for any taxes and had in some suitably lawyerly fashion explained to the City just where they could stuff it whenever the City suggested that token taxes might be a good idea. The notion (in February 2008) was that the lease would be up in 2010 and the whole matter could be re-visited then.
Well 2010 is almost upon us, the City with its merry band of 1751 $100K+ employees has its fiscal ass in a crack and could easily be imagined to be looking for some additional tax base now that the Viagra has played out of Jorge Perez's condo erection frenzy. Charthouse-Bayside sounds like just the ticket."
posted by Tom Falco at 10:30 AM
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25 Comments:
Excellent observations. Let's take a look at Miami's city owned (publicly owned) land.
"Highest And Best Use" is a term that is used to describe how land should be utilized for the good of the people. This is not the case, here.
If parcels such as Dinner Key, Marine Stadium, Virginia Key, and Watson Island, were privately owned, they would have a market value of roughly $10 - $20 million each.
Is it just me, or is anyone else perplexed as why $100 million worth of property can lie dormant like so much wasteland?
that image looks like it has the convention center razed for a big ass park.
i wonder if they could somehow still accomodate the boats if they did this "bayside" thing. keeping the boats around to me is an integral part of our community.
There were whispers about a large marina at the last meeting. Picture mega yachts and big bucks taking over the waterfront. Picture the neighbors being out of the picture.
"Picture the neighbors being out of the picture"
I understand where this comment is coming from but eventually the Grove will have to grow/evolve with the rest of Miami. If we don't we will be left behind.
Having the mega yachts,(and w/e elese comes with it) will benefit the local community and possibly increase property value etc. I don't see it diminishing the "Grove vibe."
Don't get me wrong, I moved to the Grove for its simplicity and the fact that it doesn't encompass the traditional Miami/Miami Beach scene, but I do believe we have to evolve in our own way.
Everything must grow to survive
So you are suggesting that the countless hours of work over years and years with all the community input of hundreds of people on the Parks Masterplan should be thrown out the window now to allow for the Chart House to take the place over and turn it into a marina? Please explain.
Anonymous 11:39 you are an insult to all of us who worked over 4 yrs on the waterfront masterplan. ur comments are very insulting to everyone involved.
I am on the waterfront plan implementation committee and was at the last meeting, the topic of which was supposed to be a discussion of the implementation of the aspect of the plan affecting Grove Key Marina, Scotty's, Chart House, and Grove Harbour Marina. Grove Key, Scotty's and Chart House are all on the same City lease which ends in 2012.
There were no whispers of a megayacht marina. There is no discussion of that in any way and never has been. Grove Key Marina currently serves our community in two ways: 1) they have reasonably priced dry stack storage for smaller boats and a fuel dock; and 2) perhaps more importantly, Grove Key is one of only two boatyards in the Miami area where you can haul your boat and do the work yourself. The other is Hurricane Cove up the river. That makes having a boat more affordable for those who can't or don't choose to pay a yard a markup on everything. The many residents who participated in the waterfront plan agreed those are needed uses. When the lease is up, it was envisioned that Grove Key might improve its facilities, but keep the function essentially the same, and it was absolutely clear that the vast majority love Scotty's and want it to stay. The plan envisions the replacement of the Chart House building with something less obstructive to water views and access, with a broader baywalk and the addition of a commercial fishing pier which is where the shrimpers would be relocated and where tourists could go to get fishing charters. The other piece of property that was discussed is the City run surface parking lot between Grove Key Marina and South Bayshore, where the waterfront master plan places a parking garage (not to be higher than the hangars) with a marine-related retail wrapper. Currently that property is not part of the Grove Key lease.
There is no physical space in that location for a megayacht marina if people wanted one, which they do not. Stop the hysteria, please! The question that was asked by Marc Sarnoff at the meeting of the representative from the company that owns Chart House was whether his company could run a marina. He also raised the idea of making the Chart House/Grove Key/Surface Parking lot properties all one parcel for a master development RFP. Landries, the owner of Chart House, has a property in Houston that is retail, restaurants and marina. They would be capable of running a marina. At the meeting, their representative kept mentioning the need for close surface parking for retail and restaurant projects. I had to remind him that the plan did not allow for retail and we were there to discuss a renovation of the Chart House restaurant.
People who care about this should keep their eyes and ears open. The waterfront implementation committee's meetings are public. The next one is September 9 at 5:30 pm in the room behind Commission Chambers at City Hall.
Michelle, no offense, but others in this community speak to me and when I post something here, it is fact. It maybe didn't come from your mouth, but it came from a few other mouths who are in the know.
I don't need to be corrected when there is no reason to be corrected.
Thank you.
PS, by mega yachts, I mean something like at Grove Isle, the Coors Yacht and so on. Not ships, yachts. I doubt they are putting a marina in for 20 ft. boats when they can charge mega bucks like the Watson Island talks.
The plans show the boat slips right here on the image above. I agree that they want yachts and not dingies as clients Ms. Niemeyer.
The rendering shows the yacht basin is michelle talking out of her you know what again?
It's rather simple: The Waterfront in Cocoanut Grove is a very rare commodity. We are blessed with being a Bayside Community, yet we don't get to see a glimse of the Water anywhere in all of North Grove, almost Nowhere in Central Grove, very, very few spots in North Grove, just around Peacock Park, to Meyers Park to Seminole ramp, and around Dinner Key and the marines, on foot only, then some little water at Kennedy Park, after that No Water/boat views, sunrises, etc to be enjoyed (unless you take to little side-residential streets for a glimpse) nothing until Alice Wainwright park and Key Biscayne.
Of the rare, precious few spots of Bayside View left (of about 10 miles of Bayside, around 95% Blocked from view by the common visitor or resident by now)of those very rare Spots of visible Water, they are trying to block and build close to the water again, around Charter House and the infamous Grove Harbor Marina.
That, of course, only benefits a few of the wealthy Boat Owners, who want to throw parties and build an office building or whatever to further block popular waterviews.
As simple as that: Just preserve what little, very scarce Water Views we have left! (Please note that most people drive through the grove or go on Bikes, walk, and the ONLY Water they see is a few yards around Seminole ramp. That's it! You have to live on higher floors of certain, private buildings to even see SOME Bayside Line Coconut Grove. Sad, very sad.
But of course MONEY Interests usually triumph over the good for most people, visitors, tourists, and residents alike.
So sure!!! Let's Block the very few remaining Water views that are left, let's rent helicopters or Yatchs instead to the next generation so they can see the Bay, and make a profit while we're at it. Carlos Iglesia
"Growth to survive" is one of those myths that brought us Manifest Destiny, the Roman Empire, the British Empire, the U.S.S.R. It leads to boom and bust.
Growth brings bigger government, higher taxes, higher crime rates, homelessness, and an endless variety of ills.
Growth is not necessarily a good thing for any community. Before dedicating yourself to growth, take a careful look at what you're asking for and what you're going to get.
Pogonip hit the nail on the head.
Yup, growth for the sake of growth is bad news.
Grape, I just can't believe how cynical you are. You've got to get better drugs, or more expensive wine.
Whether or not the waterfront will be developed according to the master plan, or for that matter, any plan will depend on money.
Right now there is none, so don't hold your breath.
Look at the Flagstone development on Watson Island.We are nearly ten years into this one and nothing has happened, and my guess is that it won't happen until the economy changes. There is just no need for these types of facilities (big, expensive hotels,upscale shopping and megayacht marinas. We had our chance and we blew it.
The Grove is a different animal. First, the bay is too shallow for megayachts, even the newer shallow draft ones. That's one of the saving graces of Biscayne Bay and also the reason it is the best place in the world to sail under 35 foot boats.
On to the property taxes owed by Grove Key Marina. That's not exactly true. Taxes were not included in the original deal and the city has chipped away at that over the years in lease modifications, but the city, according to state law (public land used for a profit operation) the city is responsible for the taxes absent an agreement with the tenant.
So the city owes the taxes and doesn't pay them because they go to the county, the school board and the CITY. Nobody ever buys the tax liens because nobody can own the property unless the city sells it and that takes a referendum.
So over the years the city has saved millions by not paying itself and nobody can do anything about it. My guess is that whomever gets the new lease in 2012 will have to pony up enough cash to pay the taxes, along with monies to upgrade the neighborhood. Isn't this a great city???
So what do we do? The only thing we can do is to completely rewrite the city charter and get the residents to pass before the special interest get their greedy little fingers in it. Fat chance.
I don't take drugs Jack and I don't like wine. Guess I am just plain stupid.
Grape, you are not cynical nor stupid. You are just calling things as you see them. Even matters concerning Ms. Niemeyer et al.
No drugs and no wine?!?!?! Those are what the grove was built on. C'mon start supporting your village!
Just trying to set the record straight. The plan is public record. There is no plan for a megayacht marina in the Grove and never has been. Grove Harbour has filed for permits for an additional dock that is shown on the plan (that was in the works as the plan was being done) and the plan includes a commercial fishing pier which has dockage for that purpose. It's very difficult to get permits to build docks in FL due to environmental issues.
On a personal level, I have a BIG PROBLEM with the plan potentially being used to push out Grove Key and Scotty's, which provide services at the lower end of the cost spectrum and which most people involved in the planning process said should stay. On the worst case scenario scale, however, a megayacht marina isn't even a remote possibility. Hate to disappoint the conspiracy theorists, but it just isn't. Jack's right; the bay's too shallow. Now, fancier, really expensive rack storage is another possibility. That could happen. At Grove Harbour they can take VERY big boats in the racks, at very high prices. Not megayachts. If Grove Key's racks were redone, they might also accomodate bigger boats.
Grape, just because someone tells you something and you post it doesn't make it fact. If the people you talked to were really "in the know" they would know what a megayacht is and realize there is not and never has been a place for them in the plan, because like some ocean racing sailboats, they would go aground in the bay.
I can tell you that there is no way in hell that the city could get a permit, in this day and age from the county or the federal government to put in a large marina adjacent to the grove. There are more endangered species in the area off the coast of the grove then in some states as a whole. That area is built out as slips go. Dredging, new massive docks to support the mega yachts, shading by boats and increase vessel usage. It ain't going to happen.
Grape is there a chance you could limit these posts to one paragraph or 100 words; these rants by the same people are wearing.
By the way Bayside Market on Biscayne Blvd is for sale so apparently these concepts are not too successful or have seen their day.
Yes, starting right all posts that go on and on will not appear here. I tried to let my friends like Harry and Michelle have their say, but even friends can get long winded. So no more posts longer than a paragraph. A short paragraph.
And why not, let's finish the job: Block every single inch left of any glimse of the Bay we might have left, with boats, offices, concrete, whatever. just block it. Build more, earn more.
Let's all drive our SUV's or bikes or whatever to the City of Key Biscayne, heck, it's not too far, so that we can even SEE or Smell the Water and the Bay again. It's more than an endangered Species in the Grove, it's just as good as Extinct. Build! Make Money, who needs the Bay anyway? Boats? The Bigger the Better, more Marinas please! We all own huge boats. I want to make sure there's not an INCH left of Water to be seen here by the average visitor or resident. Thanks. CI
And I used to be proud of telling people I'm a native of Miami at 50 years old.
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