The 5 am club closings
One of the issues on the agenda for today's Commission meeting is the 5 am club closings.
I have mixed feelings about this. Most feel that this is a problem which directly affects quality of life in the Grove. There are many issues involved here according to those who want the earlier closings: late club-goers hang out in our streets, increased break-ins, particularly to cars in the area, more litter, trash, and bottles on the streets, drive through the Grove with loud boom boxes, increased motorcycle traffic,and a big concern is the public safety issue of people driving drunk, etc. Passage would mean clubs now open to 5:00 am must stop serving liquor at 3:00 am.
This is not an issue of noise within the clubs or security guards at the clubs, although noise reverberating from some of these clubs has been an issue. This is primarily the noise and criminal acts that occur in the Grove once these people leave the clubs.
I don't see how 3 am or 5 am makes a difference. Vandals are vandals at 3 am or 5 am.
I don't have an opinion either way and am just wondering how others really feel. Do most people care about this two hour difference? Does the two hours really make a difference?
I have mixed feelings about this. Most feel that this is a problem which directly affects quality of life in the Grove. There are many issues involved here according to those who want the earlier closings: late club-goers hang out in our streets, increased break-ins, particularly to cars in the area, more litter, trash, and bottles on the streets, drive through the Grove with loud boom boxes, increased motorcycle traffic,and a big concern is the public safety issue of people driving drunk, etc. Passage would mean clubs now open to 5:00 am must stop serving liquor at 3:00 am.
This is not an issue of noise within the clubs or security guards at the clubs, although noise reverberating from some of these clubs has been an issue. This is primarily the noise and criminal acts that occur in the Grove once these people leave the clubs.
I don't see how 3 am or 5 am makes a difference. Vandals are vandals at 3 am or 5 am.
I don't have an opinion either way and am just wondering how others really feel. Do most people care about this two hour difference? Does the two hours really make a difference?
posted by Tom Falco at 8:11 AM
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20 Comments:
If by 5 a.m., the Sun is up, this reduces the likelihood of vandalism. 3 a.m. increases it due to Darkness. 2 a.m. is the standard closing time in most of Urban America.
I am speaking on my own behalf, NOT for the Village Council. Some of you may know I was the lone vote against supporting a ban on future permits for 5 a.m. closings. The Village Council does not support taking away that privilege from the businesses that have it now and depend on the revenues from all of their sales to stay in business.
One problem we have is that nightclubs are so profitable you can make more money in the Grove renting a big space and leaving it empty all day, opening at 10 pm and closing at 5 am, than you can if you have a full service restaurant that is open during the day. We do not want the Grove to become an empty club district during the day, dominated by places that are only open at night -- at least I don't. My solution to this problem would be to ONLY allow establishments that are full service restaurants open for lunch and dinner to have 5 am privileges, places like Mr. Moe's and the Loggerhead.
If every bar closes at 3, I believe it will make the problems people are complaining about worse at 3 than they now are at 5. The volume of drunks stumbling through my neighborhood dropping their bottles and take-out pizza plates, getting in their cars and leaving the Grove will be greater and all at one time, and one might assume the City will not increase the police presence to deal with the increased number of people leaving the bars at the same time.
The problem is enforcement of the laws, such as open container laws, littering laws, and the noise ordinance, not closing times.
I agree. Vandals are vandals no matter what hour they get out of a club. In Spain, many of us left around 5 am to have some chocolate con churros; in Venezuela, 5 am is not unheard of and then you go out to have arepas.
In many cities, there are always "party" areas where 4 and 5 am are not unusual closing times. I say, keep 5 am, get more cops to work on these bars to supplement their incomes and everyone benefits.
Can someone please post the study which the city has done to conclude the effects of changing the time from 5am to 3am. I am sure this would shed light on this subject. Let me know the link cause outside of everyone’s opinion I have not seen any facts to support a change. Its obvious we all want to improve the Grove, but it needs to be proved with facts that this will in fact have a positive effect from all angles (business and community). If not how much of business gets impacted and how much of an actual improvement do we receive for the impact.
Additionally, if the change is made it needs to be a global change for all establishments. How can the city expect new business to thrive when we do not let them compete under the same rules.
the only purpose of any place being open between 1 and 5am is to sell as much alcohol as people will buy.
the more they buy, the drunker they are when they leave.
in miami, its a cultural thing, i.e., latin, not to go out before midnight, then drink and drink for hours.
any other city ive ever lived in closes its bars at 2am at the latest. you simply start getting drunk earlier.
the more clubs, i.e., bars selling lucratively marked up booze, a place has, the more problems it must deal with, from vandalism to vehicular homicides to assault and batteries to public urinating etc etc.
close the clubs by 2am like the rest of the usa. dont like it? move back to barcelona, columbia or cuba.
I can somewhat agree with the notion that these clubs take up valuable space that isnt an interest before late at night. It would be nice to have other businesses in there that appeal to a broader audience, but in the case of Visions and Apple Martini Bar, those locations are really crappy. I think those businesses have changed over multiple times in the past 5 years. I do agree that while 5m is a bit unnecessary, changing it to 3am really isnt going to do anything. If you want to stop things like vandalism, robbery, etc, then really what needs to be done is to add security. A cop or cops patrolling the streets would help a lot I bet.
I can't believe the blatant racism of "Dreaming"... must really change to "Nightmare".
Cultural?
How about binge drinking in US Colleges? That's pretty U.S.?
So, because everyone does something (close at 2) we also need to close at 2?
Racist and conformist!
Selling alcohol until 5:AM is a bad idea not because those bar patrons cause more trouble. It's because the 3:AM license would create a different type of bar. Possibly a jazz club or an acoustic sounding bar (BlueManGrove).
The 5:AM bar contains very few customers over 25 years old.
It needs to stay at 5 AM. From experience in the business:
1. like the others have stated-vandalism and crime is going to happen no matter what time it is. Increase the security.
2. Some of these bars have had 5 AM licenses for years. These licenses are set up with the City of Miami NOT The "Village of Coconut Grove". Can the "village" really revoke a license that the city has granted??? I think the committee is trying to sneak this one by w/o anyone really noticing.
3. Closing at 5 is an advantage in terms of traffic and all the drunks on the street. Let's say everyone closed at 3. You would have twice as many people all trying to leave the grove at the same time and you would probably increase fights, etc....The bars themselves like how people go home in waves. Once at 3 and then the rest at 5.
4. Who cares what the rest of the US does? This is Miami.
5. How about we just close down Apples and Martini Bar b/c I think they cause the most violence anyway. haha
It was stated today at the Commission hearing that when you got to Visions, you are patted down and all weapson (knives, chains, guns, etc.) are kept in a bin by the front door.
Now that's what I want in the Grove! I want these people back on our streets and driving their cars and motorycles packing these weapons.
how does 2-5am liquor sales improve the quality of life or serve the public good?
this is strictly a selfish tradition that only serves the liquor license holder, not the general public.
nyc is the only other us city i know where bars close at 5 or 6. but many moved here to get away from nyc madness. and anyway, miami, much less coconut grove, are hardly nyc.
if miami bars closed at 2am, a few would squawk for awhile - just like smokers when smoking is banned. then, everyone gets used to it, life goes on and things are healthier for all.
To the first anon., the sun is never up at 5 am, not even in June. You must be thinking of Alaska. Your dark - light theory doesn't work.
To dreaming - yes, as a non-hispanic, I find it difficult to party at those hours, but its not just a Hispanic thing. I'm pretty sure those people are college students I see tripping out of these bars at 5am. Miami has a Hispanic majority. Accept it. Get over it. Or move to some redneck area like all the other racist have.
The real issue is, what does the 5am closers really do for the residents of the Grove? For instance, when was the last time any of them donated to our local schools? (Mr. Moes - yes.)Which of these places are in the 33 club? What kind of money do these bars kick in for the extra services needed? Coconut Grove is a community, and if these places operate in the middle of our very existence, they should respect our community and behave as contributing members. In other words, they need to start kissing ass. When a person has a house party, the smartest thing to do is invite the neighbors first. Then they don't mind if the party goes a little later.
And those of you that think they contribute through tax dollars, many of those places open, then close, without ever paying the taxes, much less their creditors. They walk away with pockets of cash, leaving empty spaces in the Grove.
Maybe the answer is that a business has to operate for at least a year or 18 months before they can be considered for a 5am closer. That leaves our community businesses, like Mr. Moes, intact, and discourages the 6 month businesses that open and close, like those at the Vision location.
Hey Dreaming,
First Nations called. They want your family to go back to wherever they emigrated from. (For those that don't know, First Nations are our native Americans, the people that were really here first.)If you want everything to be the way it was, that means no English language, no alcohol, no land ownership. So next time anyone plants their flag in this soil we live on, remember that it was stolen from the peaceful people that lived here first. Unless you are a true native, when you ask someone else to leave, you should have them follow you.
I know Sandbar is always involved in community things. They enforce Code 33 and every single day they have people eating lunch such as Commissioners and leaders, fire fighters, police, and local professionals. Why would they donate money to e.g. Coconut Grove Elementary anyway???
They actually have a 5 AM license but they choose to close at 3 and STILL they don't want the 5 AM taken away from the other bars. It works better with all the other bars.
5AM vs 3AM, it's not a big difference, but is there a need. That's what should be addressed. If the 3AM benefits the center grove - less late night issues, then do the earlier closing time.
2 more hours means more money for the bar owner - and no foot traffic to visit other stores during more core business hrs. in the Center Grove.
Tell me how late night party-till-I-drop drunks help our (anyone living in center grove) community - if there is a good answer fine, but I am waiting to hear about it. I like drinking, no problem, and I walk to the grove. But, I think these bar owners are just wanting the sales at the bar - more time = more money. Which is fine too, but isn't enough, enough - 3AM is fine.
But, if anyone has a good reason let me know I am listening.
And, let's be honest - there are not enough police presence to help, and the later the night, the harder it is, period. And, how are all of these 5AM'ers get'n home - well it's their car. But, at the same time I do not want police check points everywhere. I mean you should have seen the CLK500 that took out our condo-gate at 5AM one morning - what a fiasco (the guy was wasted off his a#$ and ran from the scene).
Well let's keep the grove business friendly, but also community friendly too.
-Bill Anderson
Bill,
Please provide the studied benefits/impacts of 5am to 3am change. Not your opinions but facts to support your opinions. Give me real documented numbers, give me stats, opinions to me does not move me to accept your position. 1 crash at 5am does not support a change. I am sure we can find drunk car crashes at all hours. If someone tells me how much violence, break-ins, and so on is caused at 2am, 3am, 4am, 5am... maybe that would help. Is it that hard to do a study to really define what we are talking about before making a change.
Everyone talks about the City of Miami corruption, but then you want to change regulations without proper analysis.
OK, so one event is not enough data - well ask my neighbors, something happens (traffic, late at night quite often on Bird).
And personally, I am cool with bars, I like bars, I go to bars, not the issue.
Every time our cars get broken into - it's between 4AM to 6AM. This I do have a numbers, for - in the last 4 years we have had more than 10 car break-ins (in my condo complex), and only one of those happened at 5PM, all the rest were at the later time, after 4AM. Two months ago I was walk'n the dog early, and this guy was stumbling home from the center and he had lost his car.... parked somewhere, and in his drunk'n state, he was not about to find it. Not a big deal, but it's a symptom of other problems.
But, I do not have exact statistics for you, just my personal observations - and opinions (after all, this is a blog for exchanging opinions).
So, please give me an example of how those extra two hrs help the Center Grove Community - please, I am open minded. The only one I can think of is sales tax, that's it.
I just do not see what the big deal is, if the locals are cool with it, and they can not change the 3AM time and the bar can exist, what is the real problem?
I want businesses to work in the grove, and I would rather us spend money supporting all the stores in the grove, but it's not a real make or break deal. If a place is a success, people will go, no matter what time it closes. I love Tobacco Road, and I do not care if closed at 3 or 5, I will still go there.... But, I go to Scotty's too, and it closes way early, it seems to be pretty busy on weekends.
But, as I have stated before on this blog, I am not into "clubland", and I just do not see anyone giving any real reason to keep a bar open that late - just one. I am all for personal freedom, but what does this have to do with any of that?
We are not talking about Prohibition here.... it's not the early 1900's.
-bill
Bill, its not the bar/club goers who are breaking into your cars. Its the hoodlums and bums that ravage your trash and scour parking lots looking for valuables to steal. Take a step and be proactive and dont keep valuables in your car.
HI Blind mind:
We don't leave anything in our cars. But it happens.
Oh, check this out - and I did sleep through it - 4:30AM this morning, a Isuzu SUV rammed our palm tree on the corner of Bird - trashed his car and drove away w/o cooling fluid and a major oil leak.... I would wager he was beyond the legal limit - and fled the scene in his damaged SUV. Now Len tells me if we made sure all clubs/bars were open until 5AM, then that guy would have been still drink'n and not causing any trouble.
So I am officially now for keeping Bar/Clubs open 24/7, hey why not. Keep'm all drunk and maybe they will not have to leave at anytime - and this change will keep those palm trees just a bit safer.
-bill
There is no public benefit to the Center Grove residents to allowing 4-5 clubs to remain open past 3:00 am. Remember the club goers out at 5:00 go through metal detectors. These are not Grove shopper types.
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