We aren't NY -- we don't need Central Park
The Miami Planning Board approved the Sasaki waterfront plans this week. The Miami City Commission will look at the plans in the fall and make a decision, but of course, where there are developers involved, you know they will pass this.
I still say we need to leave the waterfront alone. The US Sailing Center and the Coral Reef Yacht Club are against the current plans because they would have to move locations.
I am concerned about developers and all the corruption in this town that I honestly don't think this project should start, especially when the current Mayor and Commissioners are still in power. I am concerned about commercial ventures moving in from Starbucks to boat and bike rentals and even those stupid six person peddle carts you see on Key Biscayne rented by fools on the weekend.
The Grove downtown area is a disaster with so many boarded up storefronts. How about money be spent there and on doing something about that mess Mayfair before any more money is poured into the area. The majority of people who use our parks are not even from the Grove, they aren't spending any money in the downtown area currently, and now we are giving them free parks to enjoy?
I say leave the parks alone. Rustic is nice.
I still say we need to leave the waterfront alone. The US Sailing Center and the Coral Reef Yacht Club are against the current plans because they would have to move locations.
I am concerned about developers and all the corruption in this town that I honestly don't think this project should start, especially when the current Mayor and Commissioners are still in power. I am concerned about commercial ventures moving in from Starbucks to boat and bike rentals and even those stupid six person peddle carts you see on Key Biscayne rented by fools on the weekend.
The Grove downtown area is a disaster with so many boarded up storefronts. How about money be spent there and on doing something about that mess Mayfair before any more money is poured into the area. The majority of people who use our parks are not even from the Grove, they aren't spending any money in the downtown area currently, and now we are giving them free parks to enjoy?
I say leave the parks alone. Rustic is nice.
posted by Tom Falco at 8:56 AM
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26 Comments:
CGG you make some good points.
The waterfront should be left alone for the most part.
I too, am convinced that most City projects involve corruption and massive overspending that is 3 or 4 times the actual cost.
The downtown Grove area is indeed a disaster. Mambo's is now closed and it's amazing that there are so many other closed shops. The disaster is that the village is not a place where Grovites go on a regular basis. The reason for that is, no parking.
However, I think that the bayfront parks are utilized by Grove residents and other visitors alike, which is great.
Which plan did they approve?
This is the first I've heard of Coral Reef YC and U.S. Sailing Ctr. having to move. Doesn't CRYC own the land they're on?
the plan doesn't move coral reef. they opposed the plan because they don't want the sailing center to move
I don't think parking is an issue. Anytime I want to go to the grove I drive and find parking, whether it be at a meter, Cocowalk, or some other garage. Yes some of the garages can be expensive, but so is parking anywhere else like South Beach, etc. What the grove downtown needs is better restaurants,bars, shops, and more pedestrian friendly walkways once you are there. It would be great if someday Miami had a functionable public transport system that connected the different neighborhoods so that way you wouldn't have to drive. Also, what's so wrong with other people coming to the grove to enjoy a park? Last time I checked public parks belong to the people and not just the people that live nearby.
Let's see what DERM has to say. They can't do anything without their blessings.
This is just a question. Is commerce in the downtown Miami community any better because of Bayside?
I don't know the answer, but I ask the question because although the waterfront plan proposal is not similar to Bayside, I assume the objective is to help maintain Coconut Grove's vitality.
My understanding is that the wondefront plan would more efficiently connect downtown coconut grove with the waterfront. Ideally, bringing more business opportunity to the community.
I wish they had a smoke-free neighborhood gay bar in the downtown grove area like the new Halo's bar off of lincoln road. Coconut grove is too straight so many of its gay residents have to go elsewhere for a gay scene. Also, an upscale vegetarian restaurant like sublime in ft. lauderdale would be great.
Tony, there is plenty of parking in the Grove. Im going to make a map and point it all out on my blog someday. People are just too fat and lazy to walk an extra 100 yards...
Im all for the waterfront plan. We need some change in the Grove because, clearly, the current plan is failing. More innovation, more marketing, more buzz. I welcome the changes.
Grapevine, why dont you run for a local govt position. You seem to have a lot of complaints but few solutions besides, "keep everything the same or like it was 10 years ago." I dont mean to rip on you personally, and I agree that these new actions likely involve corruption, but they cant damage the community anymore than it already has been.
I say it aint broke, don't fix it. Leave the waterfront alone. Spend the money where it is needed - the downtown area -- the ghost town.
Grape. The waterfront is broken, badly. It is full of homeless derelicts. It is non-user friendly. It is overgrown with shrubs that block the view of the water. The convention center is an eyesore.
There is a system of checks and balances in place with the new design regarding oversight with the architects, public meetings, etc., so the city cannot screw it up like they would if they were in complete control.
Change is good. The Grove is looking sketchy and needs updating.
Rustic? How about decrepit and slummy is more like it. Urban parks are what make great cities great. This will be a dramatic improvement.
what does this mean for the boats that are anchored out at Dinner Key?
Why don't we all go to the meeting and tell the developer:
"You think the whole world revovles around you and your money, don't you Potter? Well I'd say in the whole big scheme of things you aren't anything but a scurvy little spider...and I'm glad I didn't get caught in your web!"
At the public waterfront meeting I went to about a year ago, Sasaki invited the 100+ attendees to "vote" with dots what they wanted most from the park. The biggest vote getter was "a baywalk."
The CG Sailing Club sits on the water between Peacock and the parkland to the northeast. If some sort of walkway is possible in front of the Club then great. Otherwise, it makes the baywalk too disjointed...
As it is now, the Sailing Club pretty much gets the area to themselves nice and quiet, so it is understandable that they like the status quo, but a lot more people will use the area if the Sasaki plan goes through.
Oh we do need parks, every city needs them. They are public and as such the public is welcome and encouraged to use them. What we also need is for them to be better lit at night so that their use and enjoyment can be extended and crime kept away. They did that in NY and Central Park became much safer. In addition, I find that private sailing clubs have no say in how the land is utilized. I'm all for rental of sail boats. We can't all own them, but we certainly can rent them. Let's not be so exclusive that only we residents can enjoy the area. This has nothing to do with "greedy" developers. I'm all for good ideas to improve quality of life for all...not just us Groveites. I welcome visitors. My only request would be "enjoy the Grove and leave it as nice as you found it...and in the process, drive slower!" Some sort of campaign like that would be a welcome addition to the billboards on US1.
i think upgrading the park will be great. Im down their all the time with my dog and i do not think people take advantage of it. It needs to be cleaned up and be more accessable (im a huge baywalk fan). And as a grove resident i support all miamians coming and using the park.
I personally think if the grove wants to fill in the shops, they need to start having reasonably priced family oriented restaurants. Look at how suscessful the Ac's frozen lemonade is. Im sick of paying 10$ for a salad. I wish I could transport the local food spots from my college town in santa barbara california. We had this place called cantena with AMAZINg burritos (All the mexican food ive seen in south florida is CRAP. We also had a great bagel shop (Something we need here). I think stuff like this would do well. Also things for famlies. Whenever i walk down that alley behind mayfair i think that empty buidling next to the gym would be perfect for something like the old spaghetti factory in Newport beach CA (Family focused and resonably priced).
I'm all in favor of demolishing the convention center, tearing up that derelict parking lot, and creating some nice greenspace with good sight-lines to Biscayne Bay and more pedestrian-friendly streets. It looks like the Sasaki plans would accomplish all of this.
I don't think that leaving the mess in the status quo is a solution.
Anyone know what's going to happen to Scotty's Landing?
I think the fundamental problem is not with the waterfront plan nor with Sasaki - the planners. The real issue lies with the City's inability to follow through with its commitments to the public. For example, this is the 5th Waterfront Master Plan that the City has been legally mandated to follow through on.
Early in the planning process, I attended public meetings and requested Abstracts of Title and other documents concerning the waterfront lands that are involved. I repeated those requests formally and in writing and posted them at http://www.dinnerkey.com where you can see that those requests have remained unfulfilled. Makes me wonder what restrictions might have been attached to the land use when the original settlers conveyed it to the City.
Ever notice that the Convention Center has two hangars sticking up through the middle of it? Try to find any information on what restrictions might apply there as far as demolishing historic buildings. Personally, I'm all for bulldozing it, but it might have made sense to build a Convention center with a SIGN on it before consigning it to the long list of City of Miami failures. At any rate, the buried history might prove interesting at very least.
Check the FDEP permitting process for the mooring field. When it comes to DEP, I have never seen an agency argue so ferociously and fervently against hearing public input. Anyone who wants to take the time to go through those documents (also posted on dk.com in the Mooring Field Plan Documents section) will be truly amazed.
It's great to hear City Planners who don't know one end of a boat from the other finally talking about making Miami the boating Capitol of the US, but they can't see past their own slip rentals. They're positioning Miami to be the boat STORAGE Capitol, but I just sold my boat and know several people who have moved on recently. Miami has a global reputation for treating boaters like trash and it's getting worse. It's astounding that Fort Lauderdale has a $9 billion annual marine industry and no place to sail while we have Biscayne Bay and can't keep a do-it-yourself boatyard open. Imagine what half of that money would add to the local economy if we didn't have the City pushing away anyone who didn't want to rent a slip.
My experiences with Sasaki have been positive and I expect they'll hand the City a useful plan. I worked hard with a group of consultants and stakeholders and Florida DEP in 2002 to give the City a plan that addressed waterfront issues. The City took that plan, sat on it for years and then started picking and choosing which elements of it met their political/economic agenda.
Remember way back when when there was a charette and the people voted for a boatyard at Dinner Key? I remember when the City took over Merrill Stevens and I had a paint job ruined because some dufus allowed a hover craft to come into the boatyard and stir up the dust clouds. The charlatans who worked in there representing themselves as contractors made the whole venture such a dog and pony show that it was easier to just put in boat racks and just call it a boat yard.
There has been no shortage of talent, vision, expertise, enthusiasm and hard work on the part of the people of the City of Miami and others who have wanted to put their energy behind a powerful vision for the Waterfront.
There is an unbroken chain of back room agendas, no-bid contracts, plans made without public input, creative book-keeping, hiding of public records, refusals to recognize stakeholders and shattered promises that suggests that it is the City rather than the Waterfront Plan that will trip over its own untied show laces and undo the Waterfront yet again - this time at the expense of stakeholder groups who have been there for decades.
There's plenty on the waterfront that will benefit from enlightened changes and smart management, but until the City can demonstrate a capacity for responsible governance and earn the public's trust, I'm siding with some of the others here who are very reluctant to head down a road paved with the City's good intentions.
Hi, I read with interest the various comments regarding the waterfront, our parks and downtown Grove’s need for thriving businesses, and offer some responses to the following comments:
GRAPEVINE SAID:
1) The US Sailing Center and the Coral Reef Yacht Club are against the current plans because they would have to move locations.
RESPONSE: Coral Reef YC is not moving, in fact, the proposed baywalk would have to go around their facilities, the same for Biscayne YC, so as not to disturb their privacy.
2) The Grove downtown area is a disaster with so many boarded up storefronts. How about money be spent there and on doing something about that mess Mayfair before any more money is poured into the area.
RESPONSE: Working on it. See BIC website. www.coconutgrove.com.
3a) “The majority of people who use our parks are not even from the Grove, they aren't spending any money in the downtown area currently…”
RESPONSE: Do we know this for sure? Has a poll been taken?
3b)“…and now we are giving them free parks to enjoy?”
RESPONSE: All parks should be free for everyone to enjoy, regardless of their zip code of origin. If we were suddenly to throw a gate around Peacock Park and give only Grovites a key (a larger version of Gramercy Square in NYC), I suspect those who are not qualified to get in would feel even less inclined to spend ANY money in downtown Grove.
TONY SCORNAVACCA JR SAID:
1) “The downtown Grove area is indeed a disaster. Mambo's is now closed and it's amazing that there are so many other closed shops.
RESPONSE: it is not amazing, when you consider that the rental for a place such as Mambo’s (more recently Coco’s, by the way) is $50/sq. ft. You have to sell a lot of black beans to make that kind of rent.
2) “The disaster is that the village is not a place where Grovites go on a regular basis."
RESPONSE: The Chamber, the BIC and the Merchant's Group continue to work to change that.
In the last 2 months, our Chamber Networking Cocktails have had record breaking attendance. Exciting new venues such as Christabelle's Quarter, Cefalo's and Marcanio's are contributing greatly to the appeal of downtown Grove, as has Cocowalk, which has put down a lot of $$ to restore it's quality to what it once was.
3) "The reason for that is, no parking.”
RESPONSE: We have 2 perfectly good parking garages with municipal rates within 1 and 2 blocks of downtown Grove. We now have Valet Parking at a rather good rate on Commodore. Our parking situation compares with that of Lincoln Road, which does not stop their locals (or anyone) from going there.
anonymous asked:
"Anyone know what's going to happen to Scotty's Landing?"
RESPONSE: Scotty’s landing is staying put.
thanks,
Lili Dones
Coconut Grove Chamber President,
Park-lover and waterfront enthusiast
Thanks lili
I must say i have seen the improvements to cocowalk and it really has gotten better. When i drove by it today, a lady wiping down the benches outside cocowalk caught my eye and the whole place looks gleaming. And as much as so many grovites complain about mainstream restaurants, i personally am elated they are opening a chilis. frankly that really all thats in my budget and the moment.
I think if we want downtown grove to turn around we need to get some legislation passed by the city council related to commercial rental rates.
Thank you for the response addressing some of the questions here Lili. I am a huge supporter of the "plenty of parking in the Grove" movement, however, I wouldnt say the prices are comparable to Lincoln Rd. You can park fo $1/hr there. Cant do that in the Grove for as much as I know. Then again, I live within walking distance so I may be speaking out of line.
What are the plans for marketing the Grove area shops etc? THis is where I feel the Grove is lacking the most. With so many options in Miami, youve gotta give people a reason to come to the Grove.
anonymous at 5:11 p.m.
What makes you think that commercial rent control is a viable option? Have you ever lived in a place that had rent control? Try asking someone in L.A. how easy it is to get an apartment in Santa Monica, and you're likely to get an earful.
Yes i have and yes their are problems but to do nothing is also a problem. I dont really care what they do, i just think centers like mayfair that sit with 80% of their space ununsed due to have lease rates and the inability of any buisiness to make a profit is hurting out community. Whether its using rent control of taking or some other means something needs to be done. And yes i have lived in rent control areas including NYC. Without rent control my grandma would have been booted out of her tiny apartment along with every other low income and elderly families. The commerical rates here are unjustified. THIS IS MANHATTEN! And the fact that mayfair seems content to have 80% vacency makes things even worse.
Miami is based partly on capitialism and partly on socialism. Businesses and landlords can charge what they want. Vacancies can result.
Socialism. If you know the right politician you can get the taxpayers to pay your commercial rent and you can even get free housing. Watch Commissioner Spence-Jones. She demands the taxpayers in Dist 2 and Coconut Grove pay for free condos for her people in Overtown. Many Dist 5 residents only have to pay 15% to 25% of their apartment rents. The taxpayers pay 75% to 85% of the rent. "Sure beats working".
If Mayfair is 80% empty, then that is the owner's problem, not mine or anybody else's. But wasn't the Mayfair built with county money? If so, then I think that it's an abject lesson in the role government plays in private development.
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