Set the Grove Free! Let's be our own city
I would love to send a message to all the selfish commissioners who use the Grove as a cash cow and then spit all over us.
How would the City of Miami run without the majority of taxes coming from the Grove? Let's look into annexation. Let's be our own City. As Tony points out in one of the comments on a previous post:
"If Key Biscayne, Aventura, Cutler Bay, Miami Lakes, and Pinecrest can successfully incorporate, Coconut Grove should be able to accomplish the same thing."
Let's send that selfish Michelle Spence-Jones a message that her district will be in deep crap without the Grove's money supporting them. How about a little support back, Michelle, in the way of a vote alongside the district Commissioner Marc Sarnoff?
I am hoping that Marc is doing something to lobby these idiots who voted in favor of the zoning change at Mercy so that at the second reading, wiser heads prevail.
The City of Coconut Grove sounds so nice. So does Mayor Marc Sarnoff. :)
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35 Comments:
I'm not sure that the loss of Grove money would hurt all that much if the City kept the rest of Dist. 2. And we would be on our own with respect to dealing with issues affecting West Grove. Who will be our P.D.? Will there be a City of Coconut Grove P.D., or do we "borrow" from Metro-Dade? Who would pick up the garbage, who would be our fire dept.?
When you add all this up, and more, secession looks much less attractive than the option of simply being politically astute and smart. It seems that one of the reasons that the Grove gets the back-hand treatment so often is that we are perceived as a bunch of whiners. Unfortunately, it seems that we often live up to that reputation. I can certainly think of no better way to live up that reputation than starting another secession campaign, which would just make us look like a bunch of kids who threaten to take our toys and exit the playground whenever we don't get our way.
In order to overcome that, rather than bitch and groan about how we get mistreated by the rest of the City, we need to hold our elected City Commissioner's feet to the fire and make sure that he is effectively making our case to his fellow Commissioners. At the end of the day, this is about leadership. We elected Marc to be a leader in representing the Grove's interests. If he can't do that effectively, then no amount of good intentions will make up for it.
I disagree with the above comment. I know old time Pinecrest residents and they could not be happier since incorporating. Police presence has increased more than tenfold for that area, their streets are cleaner, tax dollars are more efficiently reinvested - i.e. new parks and there is a stronger more unified sense of community.
We'll see how Sarnoff will stand up to the powers-that-be that run this city hall but personally I'm sick and tired of the same old lies and banana republic crap that we have to tolerate year after year.
Secede?
Absolutely Positively Yes!
By the way let's not forget that in 1925 the Village of Coconut Grove was annexed by the city of Miami though Grove residents at the time overwhelming voted against annexation.
A correction in terminology: you can't "annex" Coconut Grove, because it was annexed into the City of Miami. The word you are looking for is "deannex".
Annexation is the act of an existing municipality acquiring territory that isn't part of the city. Incorporating is the act of creating a new municipality. Dissolution is the act of abolishing a municipality.
Coconut Grove May Require A More Creative Way To Secede From Miami
Many of us Grovites are tired of not being listened to by the City of Miami. Home Depot, Trees, Traffic, Crime, Mercy Hospital Rezoning, Grovener, Waterfront, arrogant Commissioners and Mayor are just a few issued that come to mind. We have tried a few times to get out from under the control of the City Commissioners and Mayor, but have always failed.
The truth is that Coconut Grove, Downtown and Brickell are needed to help subsides the rest of Miami. But even with all of the income produced in these three area Miami still remains one of the three poorest cities in the USA. The reason for that is mostly a result of very poor management on the part of Miami’s elected government and those that they appoint to help run the city. Unfortunately they can’t figure out how to keep expenses with in the budget so they are too willing to permit more residential and commercial building to help them in a feeble attempt to raise more taxes.
It is long overdo that those living and working in Coconut Grove put a stop to this. We can’t secede because the rest of Miami would vote to set free one of its biggest Cash Cows. So I propose looking into an alternative way to sever the umbilical cord with Miami.
I suggest that we form a committee to locate a smart attorney (like that of John Lucas) that specializes in Native American Reservation and Casino Law. Let’s see if we can make a case that Coconut Grove has always remained its own city. Lets argue the case that Coconut Grove was illegally annexed by Miami back in 1925 when most of the residence where up north on vacation to get away from the stifling summer heat.
So, let’s go to court and claim that Miami has treated Coconut Grove much like the U.S. government treated many Native American Indian Tribes. That we were also lied and cheated out of our land. That we want it back along with lots of financial restitution, an apology and for them to depart our historic Pan American Airport building, that deserves a much better fate then to be Miami’s City Hall. That we will sit with them and negotiate terms of a settlement that will be favorable for all concerned even though we have been victimized for the past 82 years.
Just like the Boston Tea Party we Grovites could sure us a Coconut Grove Mango Party to help declare our independence from Miami once and for all.
Harry Emilio Gottlieb
Coconut Grove
I'd be curious to know just how many people who disagree with my comment above are able and willing to take some concrete action toward effecting secession from the City. The perennial problem in the Grove is that half of us are dreamers and the other half are drunks (with some substantial overlap).
So, I have to wonder: Who is going to lead this gallant secession? What's the plan, man?
great idea. i'm all for the city of coconut grove.
I offer another possible alternative, although one that is unlikely to ever happen. The City is a creation of the State, and as such, the State can do whatever it damn well pleases when it comes to cities. What we need is for an amendment to the STATE CONSTITUTION establishing Coconut Grove as its own jurisdiction, or at least allowing a referendum of Coconut Grove residents only (not the entire City of Miami) on whether to allow the Grove to secede. Hell, if the bullet train, caged pigs, and other such ridiculous things can be successfully voted into the State Constitution, why not this? Another option is to get our State representative to have the State legislature pass a similar item, and have the Governor sign into law. But I certainly wouldn't count on that ever happening. I still don't understand how the City of Miami was able to legally and ethically annex the Grove back in the day, and it is only right for the State to get involved to correct this terrible terrible wrong. It's all about the STATE, people!
Also, there was a comment about how a new Coconut Grove municipality would be able to support the West Grove (now Village West, guys!). Has the person who wrote been paying attention to what is happening in the West Grove? In 10 years time, this area is going to be completely gentrified, so chill, buddy. The West Grove is an asset, and will only become more so if the Grove were able to secede and be given the opportunity to fix its own problems.
Viva La Grove!
Is this really a posibility? Aren't we all sick and tired of the false promises and hidden agendas.
Brainstorm fellow Grovites!
All the areas mentioned above were unincorporated Dade County, and the "election" was only open to people in those areas. The County finally wized up, and started imposing fees on the new "cities", to make up for the lost tax revenue.
Trying to deannex from the city would mean a citywide vote, and the Grove would suffer another defeat, like they did in the 20's.
One solution may be to attempt tp impose on ourselves some sort of stricter zoning guidelines and regulations. Sort of like a voluntary imposition of stricter guidelines within the Village, that do not apply citywide. The vote on this plan could be limited to Grove residents, thereby controlling our own future.
If I'm not mistaken, there are already "area specific" laws/regulations in existance in the city. Why don't we try this tact?
I'm just thinking out loud here, because the deannexation is not going to fly.
One more comment. It may or may not be cheaper to have our own city. But given the huge obligation of the city of Miami carries for their "overworked and underpaid" "public servants" ( isn't that a crock?) who are now retired on a goldplated gravey train, funded by us of course, I believe that eliminating that factor alone, would tip the scales in favor of us coming out way ahead on a balance sheet comparison.
The Grove does have special zoning disticts that add additional layers or "protection" (e.g., the Coconut Grove Neighborhood Conservation District) but the reality is that developers and their slick attorneys will find a way around the zoning code regulations 9 out of 10 times, if not by back asswards logic, then by outright bribery and corruption. At the end of the day, our problem is that these decisions ultimately rest in the hands of City of Miami Commissioners, 4 out 5 of which do not have the Grove's best interest at heart. Only one Commissioner, in this case Marc Sarnoff, cares about the Grove, and as we have seen with some of our previous Commissioners, even our own Commish can't always be counted on to protect us. I'm telling you, the best strategy for the Grove would be to secede from the City and estrablish its own jurisdiction. Alas, it's the "how" that eludes us. I still think that our only shot is with the State, and that's a small shot at that. Maybe, just maybe, I will run for State Rep. one day on this platform. Who's with me!?!?!?!
Dream on, folks. And have another glass of Appleton's, while you're at it.
Meanwhile, on Planet Earth....
This whole secession talk is ridiculous and pure nonsense. It makes all of your sound like parochial NIMBY whiners.
Meanwhile, if you read your state constitution and your county charter, you'll discover that the State has ZERO say in incorporation and annexation issues in Miami-Dade County. That jurisdiction falls to the County Commission, which is solely responsible for incorporations, annexations, and dissolutions in this county. I very seriously doubt they'd even listen to this.
And if they did, they would be wise to slap a hefty annual mitigation fee to make up for the mess you're going to cause the City of Miami when the County ends up having to bail the City out of financial chaos. And ALL of us will pay for that, regardless of where we live.
The idea has merit. The Grove has more than sufficient tax revenues to support itself. In fact, the Grove could easily pay for its own police, fire and waste services by subcontracting these services from neighboring cities. In fact, the Grove has such an abundance of tax revenues that City of Miami Districts 1, 3, 4 and especially 5 skim off Grove money for their own needs and wants. Spence-Jones does not care for the Grove. She wants the Grove money for the slums of Overtown, Liberty City etc... As far as she is concerned, the Grove can be paved over, as long as she gets the money sent out...
Why don't you people just move up to W. Palm Beach and get it over with?
It will happen.
The Village of Coconut Grove will secede from Miami.
If two thousand people donate $200 for a total of $400,000, that should pay for the process.
It will definitely happen.
Someone earlier made a valid point that I think needs to be addressed if this discussion is to be rescued from the realm of silliness: Can the Grove secede unilaterally, or is a citywide vote allowing de-annexation required?
It seems logical that the latter is correct. I thus seriously doubt that the Grove can "secede" without the assent of the rest of the City, and I also doubt that the Grove would be allowed to secede without having to pay pro-rated impact assessments to help fund pensions, entitlements, bond measures, etc. that were incurred while the Grove was part of the City (sort of like a divorce -- you can't expect to just walk away with the marital assets). Anybody want to guess what the impact fee would be for forcing City Hall to relocate?
In other words, it seems unlikely that this could all be done for the cheap price of $400k and a petition drive.
The comment above clarifying the distinction between "incorporation" and "de-annexation" seems correct to me, too. If we were living in a part of unincorporated Miami-Dade, incorporation would be relatively simple. But as were are a part of the City of Miami, de-annexation would be a whole different ball of wax.
Somebody please explain why I'm wrong.
To annoymous 10:05 am
I think we will just stay here and fight to make things better. Sorry to disappoint you.
Here's a relevant treatise on municipal secession movements: http://www.ksg.harvard.edu/taubmancenter/pdfs/working_papers/husock_98_cities.pdf.
Comments regarding Miami can be found starting on page 39.
No offense, my-ami, but while your comparison of this situation with the founding of the U.S. is appealing on its face, it does not hold up to much scrutiny. The primary beef of the Founding Fathers was that the Colonies were being taxed without being represented in the British Government. We, on the other hand, have a duly elected representative, for better or worse, in Marc Sarnoff, and we participate in electing the mayor. So, we can't claim that we are suffering from taxation without representation.
In other words, the City of Miami government may seem arbitrary, capricious, corrupt, and incompetent. But it's not undemocratic.
Exit question: Were things better or worse when City Commissioners were elected city-wide?
I thought this was a ha ha joke, but it seems like you people are actually taking this seriously. You really think the grove doesn't benefit from things like the port of miami, miami airport, metrorail, miami library, miami money going straight into beautification projects, etc, etc, etc?
While you're at it why not clip off the west grove so we don't get too many poor people in our city, and then how about we cut off the part around US 1 so our traffic isn't so bad, and then how about we get rid of that hospital there, because it is over 35 feet tall, but we can keep vizcaya, or how about I become a city of just me, and I can do whatever I want at my house while still enjoying all the benefits of residing within a real city?
There are 32 or so "real cities" in Dade County that enjoy all those amentities. The Grove can be one, too.
What are you talking about Adam? Ever hear of Coral Gables, Key Biscayne, Miami Beach, etc.?
Here, here. I grow tired of trying to talk sense into people who have no idea what they're talking about.
I love how every time I try to bring a splash of cold reality into these discussions, I get accused of being a developer or an attorney for a developer.
What a bunch of loons.
To my_ami and Harry Gottlieb and others who research issues and who write eloquently I thank you. It is a pleasure to read your contributions.
We should all use our abilities to reach out to Commissioners Sanchez, Gonzalez and Spence-Jones to teach them about the Grove and about Dist 2. We must convince them of the error of their ways. Dist 2 and the Grove will always need at least three votes to get anything worthwhile accomplished.
To Swlip and others who appear to be lobbyists please keep reading. The rest of us hope to make the Grove better for everyone, not just for favored insiders and others with special interests.
I bet Dylan Ace could make the Grove disappear from Miami so it could live on its own!
The fractured mini-city bs is one of the main things keeping miami down. Most of the cities in Miami-Dade were incorporated before the importance of regional planning was understood. Hopefully we're not still living in the early 1900's.
You may be a lover of good writing, but you have absolutely no reading comprehension. I have been advocating exactly what you advocate in your post -- that we hold Marc Sarnoff accountable for his obligation to reach out and make our case to the other commissioners.
Please publish any facts you have to prove that I am a "lobbyist," or otherwise retract your allegation. Anybody who would think that I am a lobbyist is either an idiot or just willfully ignorant. Unlike others on this thread, my identity is rather easy to determine, and if you do just a modicum of due diligence you will find that there is absolutely no support for your allegation.
I challenged everyone on this thread to spell out how, precisely, secession from the City of Miami would work. Nobody has risen to the challenge but at least a couple of people have chosen to engage in ad-hominem smears that have no basis in fact.
In the meantime, I have done the research for all of you, and have found that secession can only work in one of two ways, both of which have been tried and failed:
Option 1: Dissolve the City and allow its constituent neighborhoods to reincorporate. Been there. Done that.
Option 2: Hold a city-wide referendum on the question of whether the Grove can be de-annexed. Been there. Done that.
Both options require a city-wide vote and, obviously, to prevail on either option we would have to persuade a majority of the city's voters to vote in our favor. Consequently, either option would require a lot of reaching across political divides that are probably unbridgeable.
In other words, there is no unilateral option, here. Anybody who tells you that there is a unilateral option is blowing smoke up your behind.
I have not researched the issue of impact assessments or revenue/resource sharing, but suffice it to say that we could not count on the Grove getting off cheap.
The concept is worth getting some type of exploratory committee together. If people are serious, then it's time to get organized. The fomration of a "real" committee, allows individuals to lend support to the concept, and then more steps can be taken. I would recommend a cross section of citizens from all sectors of the community.
So, what' next?
The concept is worth getting some type of exploratory committee together. If people are serious, then it's time to get organized. The fomration of a "real" committee, allows individuals to lend support to the concept, and then more steps can be taken. I would recommend a cross section of citizens from all sectors of the community.
So, what' next?
hello Grove - Once you are part of a city, it is very hard to remove yourself from that city. I did some research on it once -- for another city. A percentage of the entire city needs to vote on letting you leave. You can't be annexed by another city unless you are next to it.
Maybe Key Biscayne can annex coconut grove over water? That would be neat.
Btw, "lover of good writing," it's kind of funny that you are using a URL-I.D. that belongs to a company located in Marin County, CA: http://grove.com/index.html.
If you're going to smear other people on this thread, at least have the courage to honestly identify who you are.
Hey swlip,
Back off, you are really one to criticize since throughout this comment thread you have proceeded to call grovites "drunks", "dreamers" and "loons".
This independence concept has merit and based on the number of replies, a high amount of interest. I don't have the answer to this proposal but with collective thinking it might be out there . And swlip, I don't know what your agenda is, and frankly don't care, so why don't you take your grumpy negativity and your insults elsewhere.
Let the positive ideas flow!
The Village of Coconut Grove will be independent.
Every goal can be successfully accomplished.
Today, most of the people who live in Coconut Grove are overachievers. They are highly successful and not just financially. They are interested in quality of life for the entire community and for their families.
The residents will be proud of their village. All who come to the Grove will see a more beautiful place than it is now. The City of Miami does not give The Grove extra attention because that who not be fair to the rest of the city.
When did "it failed before" become a valid argument not to try again? General MaCarthur said "We are not retreating. We are advancing in another direction".
If the measure gets voted down it will be revived again.
average jose:
My "grumpiness" is borne of the fact that no one seems to be willing to address the most obvious question: How would secession work? Grapevine proposed a serious topic of discussion and I feel like I'm about the only person interested in a serious answer. Daydreaming and vague pleas to being "positive" won't cut it in the real world of law and politics.
Part of this is due to my professional disposition. I am a litigator, and as a litigator I am apt to examine a proposal or idea to determine whether it has merit under the law. I have researched this issue (see above), and have concluded that there simply is no option for secession that would not require the consent of the rest of the City. However, as always, I am willing to be proven wrong, but this would require serious critical analysis and not ad hominem attacks.
My earlier comment about "dreamers" and "drunks" was meant to be partially self-effacing, but also to try to provoke someone -- anyone -- to come forward with a concrete proposal. As a fellow Grove-ite I have come to recognize a tendency in this community to engage in what if and wouldn't it be nice if discussions that are high on righteousness but light on analysis (sort of like this blog thread).
It may surprise many on this thread to know that I would love to disengage the Grove from the City of Miami as much as anybody. But I am not one to waste an ounce of my time and energy on such a notion unless I see a concrete proposal that (a) has merit under the law; and (b) has a chance of succeeding.
In the meantime, the political reality on the ground is that we elected Marc Sarnoff (whose candidacy was supported perhaps by 95% of the readers of this blog) to represent our interests on the City Commission. I know Marc personally and think highly of him. But if Marc is unable to successfully advocate our interests, then he has failed as our Commissioner. Plain and simple.
my_ami:
I appreciate the apology. I think that you've misinterpreted my insistence on concrete ideas as being dismissive of the possibility of secession. I believe I have tried to make clear that I am open to ideas, and open to being proven wrong. It's just that nobody has yet risen to the occasion.
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