How the 3 am rule is hurting the Grove
I was at a Grove restaurant recently and I was talking with the manager, the subject of 3 am vs 5 am came up, just out of the blue, we were casually talking.
I was told how the 3 am rule has hurt this one particular place and probably all the others -- it seems that many concierges from hotels on South Beach like the Loews and W and The Palm, were sending bus loads of tourists here. That is how it was said to me, "bus loads," I don't know if that's an expression or if they literally filled buses and sent crowds here in random groups or from conventions. But I was told that one particular place would receive 300 to 400 guests a night this way.
Now the concierges won't send the people, because these bus loads of tourists go out late-- 11 pm or midnight or 1 am and they do not want to come here, only to have to return a couple of hours later. The tourists want to be out all night.
Also, the party promoters bypass the Grove now. One place lost three party promoters, not three parties, three promoters and their business because they want things to start at 1 am go for a decent period of time, not end two hours later.
One place served breakfast at 5 am and many of the partiers from the night before would have big breakfasts and end the night that way. That breakfast service has stopped. So has the large crowd who would eat pizza after clubbing, that business dried up by 80%.
Many people, go home after work, or in the case of tourists, go back to their hotel rooms after a day at the beach, they take naps and they hit the streets after 11 pm. They want to be out all night. Not have a curfew. And this is just one way that the 3 am law has hurt Coconut Grove businesses. Businesses in the Grove lose thousands of dollars a month this way.
I was told how the 3 am rule has hurt this one particular place and probably all the others -- it seems that many concierges from hotels on South Beach like the Loews and W and The Palm, were sending bus loads of tourists here. That is how it was said to me, "bus loads," I don't know if that's an expression or if they literally filled buses and sent crowds here in random groups or from conventions. But I was told that one particular place would receive 300 to 400 guests a night this way.
Now the concierges won't send the people, because these bus loads of tourists go out late-- 11 pm or midnight or 1 am and they do not want to come here, only to have to return a couple of hours later. The tourists want to be out all night.
Also, the party promoters bypass the Grove now. One place lost three party promoters, not three parties, three promoters and their business because they want things to start at 1 am go for a decent period of time, not end two hours later.
One place served breakfast at 5 am and many of the partiers from the night before would have big breakfasts and end the night that way. That breakfast service has stopped. So has the large crowd who would eat pizza after clubbing, that business dried up by 80%.
Many people, go home after work, or in the case of tourists, go back to their hotel rooms after a day at the beach, they take naps and they hit the streets after 11 pm. They want to be out all night. Not have a curfew. And this is just one way that the 3 am law has hurt Coconut Grove businesses. Businesses in the Grove lose thousands of dollars a month this way.
posted by Tom Falco at 10:00 AM
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42 Comments:
I don't, but, if I owned a bar or any other business (I do own an art business), I would assume the responsibility of attracting customers; using something, some kind of magnet, some promotional theme to obtain a customer base, earn a profit and pay my bills. The very, very last thing in the world I would think to do is utter out some excuse. A good example of creating a loyal customer base----observe the Grape!
Jobie, the fact is that in Miami, the party goes all night and that is where the money is. Not at 8 pm. At 3 am. Fact of life. The late night money crowd is not going to come out at 8 pm, because they just don't. True fact.
Thousands of people work the service industry and work until midnight after that our night starts and we deserve a full night of fun just like you would if you started at 8 pm only we waiters and servers start at midnight or 1:00 AM. So you are out from 9 to 1 we want 12 to 5. Capice??????
Since Papa Sarnoff dictated this absurd, Draconian 3am curfew, many people simply go elsewhere, Brickel, South Beach, or even Flanigans here at Bird road. Why wouldn't they? It's called Freedom. CI
Mr. Jobie why not have your friend Cznaroff make all bars close at 3 am all over Miami? You want to see a riot start? Try it all over the rest of the City. STOP PICKING ON THE GROVE. SAME AM!
Grape----I did not state do not party all night, I said, more or less that, for me, a party is a party, something to do, some happening, some entertainment, some potential other than just standing or sitting, drinking some alcoholic beverage with Tacos' and chit chatting with every Tom, Dick or Harry or Linda, Shirley and Sue. A party or partying, for me has more than a bland meaning. I'm referring to a real shin dig, down right foot stomping butt kicking over the edge/normal happening. Where's such a party in the Grove where folks would be willing to part with their hard earned bucks?
WHERE'S THE BEEF?
People are not just sitting and drinking, they are meeting friends, laughing, dancing, there are bands and shows, including drag shows and famous bands and celebs and comedy acts, people are singing karaoke, playing pool and darts and playing beer pong and playing video games, watching videos and doing 1000 things, including eating lots of food and spending big bucks. They are not sitting in dark, dank bars sulking in their beer as many are picturing it.
Grape, you call this partying. I and most folks can do this at home.
WHERE IS THE PARTY?
WHERE IS THE BEEF?
No doubt about it; there are many great events everyday, everyweek in the Grove and we do attact large crowds. I've lived in the Grove since 1965. I enjoy and appreciate all of Coconut Grove.
Folks will pay to party, but, and this is not a negative, but in your own words and the words of many of the business owners, "we are not a destination". Okay, so I accept this as fact and echo that sentiment and continue by stating----since that appears to be a fact, why, because you all say it is, then I suggest you business folks do something different. If you're going to say you like to party, then party! The stuff you mention would turn away people looking to have a party. You're discribing family events. Frankly I'm am more for the family venue throughout the Grove, but for you folks who want to party and you business folks who need to earn a living, you better do more than make comments to me in the Grape! You better learn how to attract the public.
Jobie, I won't argue here, but before 5 am stopped the Grove was overrun with people. When 3 am started the place died. Overnight. The perception now is that the Grove is closed for business.
Grape, not looking for an arguement either, lets try another tack-----I need two restaurant/bar owners, preferably in the Grove so we can have a contest and keep the action/money in our community. I need a minimum of 200 seats in each. I promote my PARTY agenda and the other promotes their PARTY agenda. I take the gate/revenue and the owner working with me keeps the food & beverage net. The other barkeep keeps whatever. My venue/PARTY will earn 1,000% over the opposition. If not, I'll foot the entire cost.
Someone put their money where their mouth is and I'll show you a REAL PARTY. One the proof is in then we do this every Friday and Saturday until the fad wears off.
And I'll pay the Grape a fee to lionize and promote this contest.
See, you're already making a profit.
I repeat, you want to see a REAL PARTY, then lets do it.
Jobie if you want to get your Tarzan and Jane idea going be prepared to open the doors at 11 pm. No one will show up before then even though you want them to.
100% agree with Jobie, how are people going to enjoy the Grove when every restaurant and store is closing?
Go directly to: http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/KeepTheGroveAlive/
It's interesting that they all closed after the 3 am rule went into effect. Before that, they were all thriving.
Love seeing the Canadians and Europeans. The fact remains they are on vacation and not held to traditional bed times and have the means $$$. We are part of one of the largest cosmopolitan cities in the WORLD with great weather most of the time. Where would I go if I wanted to find an independent bookstore in Miami? How about a 24 hour Cafe? Miami Beach resources are not Miami's.
Jobie - you are quite insane. No one would let you kill their business by hosting any event there.
Now quick, tell me I'm wrong and you're right, only because I'm anonymous. Because that's logical.
Before the 3 AM rule the grove was Overrun. When? I live and work in the grove and I go threw the grove at all hours and have never found the grove overrun. Maybe I was not born when that happened. Buss loads to a restruant in the grove? We have good restruants in the grove and OK bars, but we do not have great restruants or bars in the grove that would bring buss loads. The grove neads verity and the grove does not have it. Lincoln road last weekend was packed even thow it was cold. Why because there is more things to do there and this was at 8:00 PM and at 1 things slow down.
BD, the 3 am rule was put into place because the Grove WAS overrun and the powers that be did not like it.
Also, I was told by more than one restaurant/bar owner that the concierges sent masses of people here late at night -- tourists that wanted to see other places and not just South Beach. Ask around on Commmodore Plaza before you call us all liars. Thanks.
BD, I don't know if you were writing like that on purpose, or if you're truly that bad at writing.
I love it when people are making their points by writing like children. threw=through? buss=bus? neads=needs? verity=variety? thow=though? But then, for some miraculous reason, you spell Lincoln correctly.
BTW, things slowed down on Lincoln Rd. because people go back to their hotels and change to go party at the clubs....ever been to Lincoln at 12 or 1? It's bumpin' how about the beach? Is it better at 8pm, like you say, or at 1am?
Think Jobie has said enough -- how about the rest of the regular Grovites -- I'm just regular, 65 years old, live in North Grove, and I'd love to see the 5am return -- only fair -- and of course it doesn't affect me, but if I were younger...............
If I might chime in...
To BD and Jobie and anyone else, who does not see the effect of 3am, I will give an undeniable example - Since 2002, on every thursday night, there used to be a line in front of sandbar that went to the corner of fuller street, one in front of moes that reached the corner of main highway and one in front of Cuda past H&H, to the corner of Main Highway (in fact H&H used to bitch about it, guess who his best buddy is, just FTR). Now, I have not seen any line worth mentioning at any time of day or night in front of any place in the grove - not other than Halloween, not on any night of the week.
These are cold hard facts. You cannot deny them. Once the 3am rule went into effect that began to slowly change - within 6 months, it had cut those lines down, and within a year removed them completely, and along with it the perception that the grove is worth going to... and along with it the money that our many bartenders, waiters, waitresses and bouncers have to spend... and along with it the money owners had to invest and along with it the number of employees needed... etc. etc.
The net result does directly affect the retail stores - people "in the biz" shop right next to where they work, and they tend to buy the expensive things when they're making good money and have a pocket of cash. It certainly had an effect on retail.. and on other bars or restaurants where employees of one would have patronized another.
Well said That Guy...
From what I understand Commissioner Sarnoff personally told a fellow restaurant owner last week that he would indeed introduce an ordinance at the end of the month for all of district 2 that would make for a universal 3:00am closing for all bars and restaurants, finally, THE SAME AM!!!
I would ask you Mark to please make sure that this doesn't take several years to accomplish. You should literally be able to do it in a week or two just like you did here in the Grove.
If you're not going to restore the 5:00am back to the Grove I guess that it's the next best thing.
I would like for you to know Commissioner that this is one promise I intend to make sure you keep. The spotlight will be shining brightly upon you and they'll be no backpeddaling, flip flopping, double talking or out and out lying. YOU SAID IT NOW DO IT!!
I can't wait.
John El-Masry
Anon 2:25. Yes Anon you are correct, I'm insane and that tranlates into the Grove going broke----so you're right okay. Go burn a witch.
Jobie, I'd love the opportunity to sit down and have a civilized discussion on the pros and cons of the 3:00am - 5:00am issue.
If you're open to the idea please call me at Mr Moe's @ 305-442-1114.
I hope to hear from you.
regards,
John
Hello, I'm Jobie okay, I'm Jobie.
I am not against anything at all-----period.
I'm for profit, okay, I'm for profit. I've been in business for myself since age six (6) and I have always realized a profit, today I'm 67, but so what!
I'm not for or against 3:00 A.M and I'm not for or against 5:00 A.M., rather, I'm for turning a profit. A profit before or after any time, even 24/7, or three shifts if that works.
I'm specifically stating the Grove is a very nice venue and it's my home since 1965. But, it is most definitely a family venue now.
The family venue is not turning a profit for the Grove. So, "IF" the business powers that be want to turn a profit, and "IF" the Grove is actually a family venue, as I suggest it is, then if you desire a profit you will have to change the venue-----period.
I look at the empty store space, I read the Grape, I hear the pain, so I suggest change. Stop bitching at the messenger and suggest a solution, but don't burn the messenger at the stake.
Does anyone suggest a solution?
John, I'd love to see Marc suggest a 3a.m. closing for all the bars and restaurants in District 2. Just how far do you thank that would go? I bet I could throw my SUV further! I hope Mr. Sarnoff tries it. It would alert our district (non-Coconut Grove)residents what he is up to.
I for one support Mr. Sarnoff's efforts. I think Mary Brickell needs a dog park, another circle, shops that sell bikes, spandex and health foods and the 3 a.m. closings. Oh, another Whole Foods would be nice.
Let Marc spread his vision for Coconut Grove throughout his district.
Good. It will show others what we've gotten.
Now let's look for a candidate to run against him. Grape? Or are you to mean? Michelle? Tony? Somebody?
"if you build it they will come"
first and foremost the grove needs to rebuild/repair/update/promote/etc. it's retail and professional office space. there's no secret about vacant retail space but what about vacant office space?
more people working here will spend more money on the grove's merchants and attract other businesses.
The 3am closings and the bad economy came almost together so you can't blame 5am closings, remember when we were dealing with weapons, stabbings, etc. at Life, Visions, Apple Martini, Oxygen - then they closed and life sure got better for residents! Remember UM pulled their buses too because students got too drunk, too rowdy and too combative.
When there is a definite schedule of tourists dropped off in Center Grove, I think it's imperative to have greeters/guides/ambassadors or whatever to help out with the enjoyment of the experience. If you don't know what to look for, then how can you appreciate the empty storefronts?
That Guy - you bring up a decent point but at the same time you are assuming that the variables outside the Grove are the same constants that they were in 2002 and that is plain wrong. South Miami finally got the memo that there is a major college loaded with students who want recognizable chain restaurants and bars to spend their dollars at and they developed the Sunset Place area to suit that niche. And guess what? Its working, big time. I drove by the new Five Guys on US1 at 3pm on Saturday and it was MOBBED. Sunset Place is crawling with college kids as are the bars in the area and in parts of Coral Gables, also home of UM. The Grove used to cater to this crowd and in many ways still does but it's become yesterday's news. Thats how things happen in Miami, even Miami Beach. People flock to a hotspot and then a new one pops up and they make the transition. These places in South Miami and the Gables are NEW with new TVs and appealing looks/vibe. The Grove has gone stale. No offense John, but last time I was in Moe's the TVs around the bar were so old that most didnt even show full color anymore (I did see a few new TVs in the restaurant though). In the Grove's heyday, places like Moe's and Sandbar and Barracuda were packed but they were also sh*tholes with puke and piss flowing out of the bathroom (this happened at 'Cuda countless times) and then the audacity to have some asshat in the bathroom asking for a buck to hand out a paper towel or squeeze some soap. Sure, that worked for college kids who just wanted to blow off some steam with friends, bar food, and cheap beer. Now the college kids have options whereas back then they didnt.
Look, I dont mean to bash the Grove as I really enjoy living here but the past is GONE and the current situation in the Grove should serve as a reality check. Granted that landlords with high rents arent helping the situation (they are most likely trying to pull a South Miami and attract the chains that the masses identify with) but I gotta say that this really doesnt have much to do with 3am vs 5am. I really dont see how anyone can honestly think that with a straight face. I think the 3am closings just happened to coincide with other areas of Miami finishing up a total rebranding and now 3am is being used as a scapegoat. Take a look at the Grove businesses and take the emotion out of it and then ask yourself if equal or better options existed outside the Grove, where would you go? I used to walk into the Grove almost nightly to eat and now I go elsewhere because there are few restaurants that appeal to me as much or more than other restaurants in other areas of Miami. I simply sacrifice a little drive time for a better dining experience.
SteveBM, well stated
Steve BM - I have to disagree with you. "major college loaded with students who want recognizable chain restaurants and bars to spend their dollars at." What do you base that ridiculous made up factoid on? I've spend the better part of my life in the bar and restaurant business, and a significant portion of it, dedicated to that crowd. I can tell you from experience, that the last thing they want is a recognizable chain. College kids don't want friday's or chili's - they want something real, something genuine, something they can call their own and tell their friends back home about.
I also disagree with your diagnosis about South Miami - it has captured a far bigger market share, but not because of new chain style places, and not because of college students - the biggest things in S. Miami are Town and Ra - college kids don't go to either - maybe Ra for happy hour, but they certainly can't afford Town's prices.
There have been other changes since '02 - but there's only been 1 change - one single variable that can be flipped like a switch (if one arrogant POS, would just admit his failure) that's the 3am rule.
What you fail to understand, Steve, is that the college and general 20something crowd is motivated by entirely different things than you. Unless you've seen, studied, and successfully marketed to it, it's very hard to understand. And yes, one of those things is going out to what is seen as the more wild - later partying venue.
3am is the biggest change. It's the change that 20something sees and recognizes. They dont' care about branding, chains, and the issues you do - they care about being able to party as late as they care to, in the place where the most single, sexy people will be, and where the drinks are cheap. They dont' have a ton of money - they don't want to pay chain prices.
Re: Steve Bowel movement's comment.
I'm a little confused Steve, you comment that "in the Grove's heyday places like Moes, Sandbar and Barracuda were shitholes that had puke and piss flowing out of the bathrooms countless times". All while there were "asshat" attendants watchin the restrooms.
Hmmmmmm, you certainly don't seem like an individual that would return "countless times" to venues like the ones you mentioned.
To follow your logic, the crowd that used to patronize those establishments must have taken their puke and piss to other parts of the city..
BTW Steve, Just because new areas continue to pop up and take some of our business doesn't necessarily mean that the Grove is "yesterday's news". If that were true then every entertainment area in the country would have a shelf life of one to two years max.
Go tell that to Greenwich Village or any other district that's been competitive for decades.
Sounds to me like you're on the city's payroll.
That Guy & Steve BM, you're both right in that any community, in this instance a college community, is diverse with some folks who can only engage and enjoy uniqueness, while others thrive in a world of sameness/familiarity. But, why get nasty? Show respect, but carry a big stick.
Another tourist was murdered. She was drinking and partying at Club Space on NE 11th Street downtown. That club gets to be open 24/7. She left at 7:15 am and she was dead and in a dumpster 2 hours later. Should Club Space get to stay open past 5:00 am? Past 3:00 am. Open at all?
Anon 4:01pm
I agree, please email Commissioner Sarnoff's office and ask him that same exact question. Club Space is right in the heart of his district.
The problem with "going" out in the grove has nothing to do with the closing time. Every time I talk to someone about doing something in the grove the issue is always, I repeat, ALWAYS the same:
"There is no parking".
Period.
I know that the businesses in the grove are aware of this issue and that I am not saying something that everyone does not already know. I mention this again because the best way to collect more water from a fountain with an overflowing cup is to get a bigger cup and not to hold it under the fountain for a longer period of time. Worry about the time later. Fight the battle that has a chance of affecting your situation and also does not have a few thousand voters against you.
Just my 2 cents.
Anon 5:12 Respectfully, Isn't there adequate parking spots when you take into account all of the public garages we have throughout the Grove Village? I'm guessing at this state, but with on street parking, plus the five (5) garages, perhaps more, I would think that adds up to about 3,000 spots. If I'm correct or close 3,000 spots would translated into about 5,000 individuals, plus the Grovites that are down town at peak hours. I can't remember without a special event when there were 4/6 thousand people here.
I own a bar just outside of the Grove (Brickell). I have been considering opening a new location and I would love to be in the Grove (where I happen to live). I would never be able to open a place in the Grove for the sole reason of the 3 am closing. Miami is a unique place in that people don't come out until very late. On weekend nights my bar is empty until 11 or 12. If we had to close at 3 I would be out of business.
Additionally, even if the closing was moved to 5 am, the damage has been done. I would never spend hundreds of thousands of dollars opening up a bar in the Grove with the fear of this happening again hanging over my head.
Wonder why we have so many empty fronts? Will is about the 5th person to say he considered opening something here, but did not because of this rule - in just the last year. Food for thought.
To the parking guy at 5:12 - In the last year, there have been open spaces all over the place, except during the arts fest and halloween. Last weekend at 9pm, mine was one of 3 - total 3 cars in the Post office lot. Since I had only two singles on me, I had to stop back and put more money in at 10:30 or so, and there were maybe 8-10 cars - leaving plenty of spaces, right there in center grove.
Street parking is hard to come by - but the garages and lots - particularly the post office, the one behind the playhouse - and the one on Mary tigertail always have spaces.
That Guy - I agree with you on the parking situation in the Grove. There is plenty of lot parking if people would just walk a block or two. While I dont agree with you 100% on college kids looking for non-branded chain restaurants, I can probably meet you half way. Im not far removed from college and when I was away at school seeing a TGIFridays or Applebees or something like that that I knew from growing up made decisions on where to eat easy. At the same time, I also liked a lot of the local mom n pop eateries. I honestly dont understand why you dont think that the rebranding of South Miami doesnt have anything to do with the loss of business in the Grove though. The Grove used to be THE place for college kids. Sure, 3am probably played a part in students not going to the Grove as much but if I had the option of walking across US1 to go to a bar/restaurant or having to drive/cab to the Grove, I'd be going across US1, especially if the spots were newer and nicer.
For the record, I'm all for every area of Miami having the same closing time. I'd love to have an intelligent debate about this but considering some douchebag already has accused me of being on the city's payroll, I guess that isn't possible.
I am enentrepreneur and socialite from Virginia. I was strongly considering bringing my restuarant/bar to Coconut Grove and bringing the house down with my place called "Red Bones Bar and Grill". All y'all would have been kickin trash cans its so good...but the fact you have a comissioner who hates bars and ain't afriad to change the rules in the middle of the game like real yellow belly manpurse kinda guy- the kind of guy that takes hia ball and goes home, so to speak...me and my investers had to look elswhere. Too bad, would knocked your aunt Connie's socks off this place is so damn good.
Rodney Gibbs
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