Crime is down, so are Grove visitors
I don't want to pick on one person or group, but I found this quite telling about the All Grove Crime Watch organization at the Village Council meeting last night. They seem to either be so against one person -- John El Masry at Mr. Moe's or they seem to be so blinded by their fearless leader Commissioner Marc Sarnoff or they are just selfish NIMBY people and really don't care about other areas of the Grove, or the rest of the City of Miami for that matter.
Regarding the 3 am vs. 5 am debate, Robert Lupo, head of All Grove Crime Watch, stood up before the Village Council and used the same old drunk drivers killing nurses and teachers story as the reason for being against the change back to 5 am for the bar closing time. (Someone forgot to send him the memo that that lame excuse is too laughable and stupid to use now).
But either way he and his group don't seem to be too worried about most nurses and teachers because when Liliana Dones, on the Village Council, asked about Flanigan's, on Bird Avenue, not too far from Robert's own house, he said he is indifferent to Flanigan's, which closes at 5 am. This is on tape, thanks to the Grand Avenue News, who taped the whole meeting for future broadcast.
Robert actually said, he doesn't care about the rest of the City of Miami. Just his area. Guess dead nurses and teachers (what about nuns and school children?) are ok as long as it isn't on his block.
As for the rest of the neighbors who stood up and spoke, they were brief and really did not give a reason for being against the change back to 5 am. They just don't want it. Keep in mind that these were the neighbors who showed up, I am assuming that most of the Grove neighbors don't care about the issue or want to play fair and feel that the Grove needs to be on the same playing field as the rest of the city when it comes to bar closing times.
As for the police, Commander Jorge Martin was asked about crime statistics. They didn't have many figures, but it appears that crime is down about 23% (including disturbance calls), but of course some people were quick to bring up that crime would be down since Grove attendance is down. If no one is in the bars and restaurants and on the streets, then who would be out there to commit the crimes. No one.
Regarding the 3 am vs. 5 am debate, Robert Lupo, head of All Grove Crime Watch, stood up before the Village Council and used the same old drunk drivers killing nurses and teachers story as the reason for being against the change back to 5 am for the bar closing time. (Someone forgot to send him the memo that that lame excuse is too laughable and stupid to use now).
But either way he and his group don't seem to be too worried about most nurses and teachers because when Liliana Dones, on the Village Council, asked about Flanigan's, on Bird Avenue, not too far from Robert's own house, he said he is indifferent to Flanigan's, which closes at 5 am. This is on tape, thanks to the Grand Avenue News, who taped the whole meeting for future broadcast.
Robert actually said, he doesn't care about the rest of the City of Miami. Just his area. Guess dead nurses and teachers (what about nuns and school children?) are ok as long as it isn't on his block.
As for the rest of the neighbors who stood up and spoke, they were brief and really did not give a reason for being against the change back to 5 am. They just don't want it. Keep in mind that these were the neighbors who showed up, I am assuming that most of the Grove neighbors don't care about the issue or want to play fair and feel that the Grove needs to be on the same playing field as the rest of the city when it comes to bar closing times.
As for the police, Commander Jorge Martin was asked about crime statistics. They didn't have many figures, but it appears that crime is down about 23% (including disturbance calls), but of course some people were quick to bring up that crime would be down since Grove attendance is down. If no one is in the bars and restaurants and on the streets, then who would be out there to commit the crimes. No one.
posted by Tom Falco at 2:00 PM
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21 Comments:
Low crime has NOTHING to do with recently ousted police chief John Timoney.
GRAPE
I do want to point out that Robert Loupo is a friend whose tireless work and civic-mindedness I have long admired, indeed TreeWatch is based on the CrimeWatch concept. When I asked Robert how he felt about the closing times in other area bars it was not in any "gotcha" intent, but to actually bring to light the point that many people who raise legitimate concerns about drinking and driving, may not be aware that there is at least one bar in Coconut Grove, within the same distance from many of the homes in Center Grove, that still operates until 5 am.
What I learned from my neighbors and business owners (some are both) last night is that we are all concerned people when it comes to the Grove. We all care about our quality of life. We all care about drinking and driving. We all care about our Grove businesses and want to see them thrive. I do not think there is one person in the room that would not be interested in figuring out ways in which all concerns would be addressed in and ordinance that would give downtown Grove the same advantage as other parts of Miami, while ensuring that the village itself does not go to to hell in a handbasket.
Coconut Grove is a collection of highly creative and enthusiastic individuals. I know that we can come up with a way to improve what we have and support the business district that makes this place so unique.
When we do that, it would be a privilege to have Robert Loupo bring his years of experience and his keen perspective into the team. Many of us came together as a team to work on improving the Tree Ordinance, we can do it for our Special District.
Gape you started out with "the one guy" once against Marc Sarnoff Explain to me why he picked on John L Masrey. What am I missing here.
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power. by Abraham Lincoln
Will this help to start the explanation thanks
also I think what Robert said was that he could not comment on the closing times of other neighborhoods, only on his.
Yeah, crime is down 23% but the Grove is 50-65% emptier. The numbers just don't add up.
Thanks Grape, I really do believe that most Grove residents are basically fair minded people and if presented with actual facts, (not fabrications, rumors or out right lies )that they'll come up with a compromise that works for both the business and residential sectors. It's my hope that this divisiveness that's been caused by this issue will eventually be replaced with cooperation. I truley believe that we do need each other.
John El-Masry
BTW, after speaking with half a dozen grove officers that have knowlege about crime stats I was told that the %23 drop in was more than commensurate with the drop in people that are coming into our village. For every X amount of people there is X amount of disturbances generated. In other words crime may have actually gone up per capita.
Why isn't Flanigan's subject to the time issue? Isn't it the Grove?
Has there been any analysis of revenue lost during day and evening that can be directly attributed to the early closure and not a failing economy or lack of venues? How many bars are there in the Grove?
This anti-this person, anti-that group diatribe is getting really old.
The Grove needs better stuff to do during the day, affordable parking and more music.
Unfortunately, I think this has to do with money more than anything else. The business owners want to make more, and since the residents don't see any profit, they would rather have a more peaceful, quieter Grove. I hope there is a compromise to this issue, but in talking to my neighbors, I feel that the silent majority of Grove residents would rather have a 3am closing time. Before you say it, the sampling size of my poll is limited to center grove working professionals who paid way too much for their houses, but that is what the village has become.
COMPROMISE:
WHY DONT THEY CHANGE THE CLOSING TIME TO 4:00AM
THEN EVERYBODY WINS!!!
Just saying,....
RyanStoneMusic
Ryan has come up with a great idea! meet half way. Ryan it's obvious you should run for office. Either Village Council or something at City Hall? How could no one think of this before?
Grape, Robert Lupo is a well respected and very hard working Grovite for our community and deserves a little more cloud than you are willing to give him, he has a right on his opinion, let it be. What is more interesting; is the question: why only the Special District 2 (Coconuit Grove Business District) and not the whole Grove? Flannigan's and Berries are open late and they are just around the corner, I think that Scotties and Monty's could stay open late without any problem. The question is why the discrimination and in particular against 2 places, there were no other late night open places. The argument can not be noise, or drunk driving (because one should have a total ban in the city or county or state/country); but more likely the city's incapacity to control their own rules and regulations; so what to do? make more rules and to throw out the baby with the bath water. If we want the Grove to come back than we need to be friendly, open, inviting, and smiling and have less parking meters, less rules and regulations, but more control and accountability and being more self responsible. Let's get rid of the special district 2 zoning, and be one for all, so what it good for the goose is good for the gander and start working instead of creating problems and keep evaluating them. Coconut Grove is/was and will not be the only community with different interest of business and residential.
.."since the residents don't see any profit, they would rather have a more peaceful, quieter Grove.."
What residents? A few of them in Central Grove, or the entire Grove Residential population? I garantee you that the vast majority of Grove Residents, South, West, North Grove dislike the 3am closings limitation. Don't we count?
Most of us don't go to these meetings or post here in the Grapevine, of course. And most of us moved here, in part, to enjoy the night life which was taken away by Papa Sarnoff and a few Central grove influential cranky residents. So please stop suggesting that the "Residents" are against late closings. Most of us are not. And we still go to Flanigans right here, Brickel or South Beach anyway and drive back to the Grove at all hours anyway. CI
Just for perpective's sake Pinecrest of all places has a 5AM closing time for its bars 7 days a week.
I was shocked at Robert's comments too last night. Maybe he was nervous and didn't realize what he was saying.
About the crime rate being down:
In the past 4 years there have been several incidents on my tiny street in North Grove. Each time I personally called the police (once was stalked by 'baked' teenagers, once had a car drive through my wall, a bike was stolen), other times, my neighbors had issues and called the police. Each time we would call the police, a couple of days to a week later, requesting the case number.. They would tell us that it was never reported/called in/whatever.
A drop in crime means they have been turning in less paperwork, not that there actually is less crime.
As we're discussing reviving the Grove, I just heard the Grove Block Parties have been stopped. What gives? Did someone realize we live in a bankrupt city within a bankrupt county in a bankrupt country?
Pity, it was fun while it lasted.
Just wondering..........is there anyone between the ages of 25 and 45 in on these discussions of the bar closing hours? Aren't they the ones who would most likely be out at those times? Let's hear from them. And I agree with anon 4:32 -- the residents dislike the 3am limit. I didn't know about Pinecrest and the 5am closings....seems rather silly that Coconut Grove is so far removed from reality.
To RyanStone - you clearly don't read the articles or comments. This is about the grove being at a competitive disadvantage with the rest of South Florida. Our little enclave cannot compete, if operating under rules that put us at a huge disadvantage. Yes, one hour is that huge.
In regard to residents not seeing a profit, I strongly disagree. The value of property in teh grove is high, because of the grove's restaurants and nightlife. That's a fact jack. The better the grove does, the better the property values. If we continue to lose businesses at this rate, your home in center grove, will be worth the same as those in the west grove quicker than you think.
A simple study of property values over time in diminishing urban areas demonstrates this undeniable fact. Homeowners need the bars to succeed.
Don't pick on Ryan Stone thatGuy at least he's trying to come up with solutions. Pick on the people making things bad in the first place.
Anon, I was not picking on anyone, I was demonstrating that his seeming simple "solution" doesn't solve the problem. Then I explained why. THat suggestion has been made many times since this debate happened, and it doesn't work for precisely the reason explained.
An even playing field is what's needed.
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