Village Council wimps out on 5 am decision
The Village Council Board met in a special board meeting last Thursday. The Board could not get enough votes to bring up the 5 am bar closing time as a resolution at the next Council meeting, which is October 15. Rather than discuss it then, it has been deferred and therefore will not come before the City Commission at the October 22 meeting as some thought.
The only people that voted in favor of bringing the resolution up on October 15 were Michelle Niemeyer, Liliana Dones and Adam Weirich. These three will be getting my vote in the November elections. The rest of the incumbents who are running will not.
This is an important issue and waiting possibly until after the November elections is a cop out. Voters want to know how the Village Council feels about the 5 am issue now rather than later. This will be a deciding factor on how many residents vote. It's only fair for people on both sides of the issue to know. The way things went on Thursday is very telling.
The only people that voted in favor of bringing the resolution up on October 15 were Michelle Niemeyer, Liliana Dones and Adam Weirich. These three will be getting my vote in the November elections. The rest of the incumbents who are running will not.
This is an important issue and waiting possibly until after the November elections is a cop out. Voters want to know how the Village Council feels about the 5 am issue now rather than later. This will be a deciding factor on how many residents vote. It's only fair for people on both sides of the issue to know. The way things went on Thursday is very telling.
posted by Tom Falco at 11:30 AM
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36 Comments:
ah man this makes me wish i had gotten my act together and run for village council.
Grape, please list the other incumbents running so we all know who not to vote for. I also would like to hear from all the new candidates regarding their opinion on this issue? Also what ALL the candidates think should happen at the Glass House?
Thanks
Isn't Coconut Grove part of a Special District Overlay? Doesn't that mean drinks stop at 2:00 am or 3:00 am? Why all the fuss?
Wasn't it always practically impossible to get a special exception to serve past 3:00 am?
Clarification:
At the Village Council's administrative meeting of October 8, the Village council DID NOT take a vote on passing a resolution for or against 5 am closings.
What it voted on was whether to bring the matter up to vote at the NEXT televised Village Council meeting, scheduled for October 18.
As you may recall, the recently formed Residents-Business Committee, of which fellow Councilman Adam Werich is chair, voted during its Sept 23rd meeting, in favor of asking the VC to "issue a resolution to the City of Miami requesting that Miami City Code Chapter 4, Article 1, Section 4-3(a))6) be removed from the City Code (referring to the legislation passed in June, 2008 which prohibits restaurants and bars within the village center of Coconut Grove's commercial district for serving alcohol later than 3 am.
It was the intention of the RBC to have that vote taken up by the Village Council at the upcoming meeting, along with 2 other resolutions* made during that meeting, about creating a beach, and about amending the noise ordinance, however, none of the other 2 matters came up for discussion at the meeting of Oct 8.
The focus of that meeting was whether a sub committee of the council can "pass" a resolution. There seemed to be some confusion by some that the Subcommittee's resolution to request that the Village Council pass a resolution was THE RESOLUTION AGAINST 5 AM CLOSINGS itself. So to that effect, the general consensus was that in the future committees of the council will "RECOMMEND" instead of "RESOLVE" to put forth an idea.
The Council's vote, 3 for, 6 against, was whether to have the 5 am closings matter be up for vote on the VC agenda for Oct 15.
Councilmembers Weirich, Neimeyer and I voted in favor of having it be part of this week's agenda while councilmembers Collins, Dubin, Hecht, Person, Pruett, and Zilber voted in favor of delaying the matter.
That said, here is my personal take:
I chose to vote in favor is because time is of the essence whether one is for or against the 5 am closings, and this next meeting, to which all the Candidates for Council, as well as the Mayoral Candidates have been invited to speak, would have provided the ideal forum for residents and businesses to come forth and speak out for or against.
This is a hot topic, and as such the community is not served if it is placed on the back burner.
--Liliana Dones
Secretary, VC
Is it conceivable that those who voted against the resolution felt that they were voting for the wishes of their constituents and that the wishes of those constituents are not necessarily the same as the voters in the Grapevine poll?
What was actually voted on was the question of whether the issue would be on the agenda for October 15. My esteemed colleagues decided to push the issue off to the November meeting, so that the entire October meeting could be dedicated to the candidates' introductions and questions. One of my fellow council members, who spoke very strongly on the issue at the Merchant's Meeting, now seems to be waffling.
Brian, I wish you had gotten your application in, too! We do have some great candidates, though, who will want to help our business district thrive again, as I, Lili and Adam do. It is really important that those of you who care about these issues start coming to our meetings and let your feelings be known. Part of the problem we have is that the people who show up over and over are the group Grape calls the "Center Grove Mafia," and others who support Sarnoff's vision of the Grove as an upscale Century Village.
Anon 3:23 pm:
Nah.
3:AM, 5:AM, no big deal one way or the other.
Maybe some of this energy can be directed at education or less crime or less poverty. Much of my effort involves fundraising for Coconut Grove Elementary. The school is always in need of volunteers and contributions (paper, pencils). Everything is appreciated.
Thank you Liliana and Michelle for telling it like it is and standing up to the current regime. Not only does everyone have to use their votes and get Sarnoff out when we can, we also need to support Liliana, Michelle and Adam for Village Council and get in some of the new people that are listening to the people instead of imposing what they want on the people.
Sarnoff is not listening anymore and is just imposing his wishes on the Grove and it's not what the majority wnats.
Cocoanut Grove Village Council candidates.
1) Heather Bettner
2) Kate Callahan
3) David B. Collins *
4) Liliana Dones *
5) Felice Dubin *
6) Rose Fountain
7) William Furry
8) Javier Gonzalez
9) Scott Janowitz
10) Giana M. Leyva
11) Stephen P. Murray
12) Michelle Niemeyer *
13) Sylvia Quinn
14) Renita Ross Samuels-Dixon
15) Patrick Sessions
16) Adam Weirich *
17) David Eric Wells
* Incumbents
The nine candidates who receive the most votes on Election Day November 3rd will make up the new Cocoanut Grove Village Council.
The puppets need to go.
Center Grove Mafia? Don't Michelle, Liliana and Adam all live in Center Grove? Seems they are the ones trying to force their views on others?
Anonymous 9:31 pm -- How, exactly is voting for an item to be heard sooner than later "forcing my view?"
"Forcing my view" would be insisting that friends side with me on a particular issue.
Have I done that?
Forcing my view would be spreading misinformation about an issue with which I do not agree, or rumors to discredit those who may not feel the same as I.
Have I done that?
If you know me, you should know that while I like the Grove's canopy thick, I prefer everything else about it to be crystal clear.
Liliana, You are well respected for your position in the community and your words carry weight because your name is attached. Thank you for being a stand-up person. We need more like you.
The anonymous whiners use rhetorical words like "forcing your view" and "imposing his wishes".... As if. This is called voting, as you pointed out.
I'm sure they're nice people, but most of them live in West Kendall and Perrine. That's why they are anonymous.
In my book, forcing my view would be keeping an important and time sensitive item off the agenda so residents don't have the opportunity to come to the public meeting, as soon as possible, to let the Council know how they feel about it.
Tony we anon's need to stay anon because we have already had repercussions from City politicians and staff for voicing our views. And as a neighbor of Sarnoff I wish to remain anon for obvious reasons. Because I am anon should have no bearing on the fact the he (Sarnoff) is imposing his wishes upon us in my opinion and I do not live in Kendall or Perrine. And Tony you had moved from the Grove are you back living in the Grove? Because even you had defected to Coral Gables?
Wow. conservative estimates would say that 90% of the grove is in favor of this,and realize the urgency in doing so. However, 66% of the Village council apparently does not believe in the representative model, and instead believe in the trusteeship model, wherein once selected they ignore our wishes and do what they think is right.
Shall we show them that we do not approve of this trusteeship model of governance?
Anon, 9:40:
Yes, I moved back to Coconut Grove from Coral Gables. I am flattered that you're keeping track. I actually think the Gables is an excellent place for anybody.
That's terrible that you have had repercussions from City politicians and staff for voicing your views.
Contact me and tell me who they are. I will go to them and defend your rights. No person should be forced into anonymity.
Thankfully, I received no repercussions even though I publicly attempted to seperate Coconut Grove from the City of Miami. I plan on trying again with a different approach. Perhaps you'll join me.
The Grove residents can pay lower taxes and have better representation on their own.
Tony, the reign of terror in our commercial district is real, and as much as the Anonymi frustrate me, I understand. Sunday a friend and I walked the commercial district meeting with business owners/managers and asking if they would display window signs for Joe Sanchez. The first words out of one prominent local restauranteur's mouth were, "Would Commissioner Sarnoff approve of this?" I kid you not. I understand a business remaining neutral for fear of alienating customers who don't agree, but that was clearly not what was being said.
Tony, I have been one of your most outspoken critics on this blog however I must commend you on your efforts to separate Coconut Grove from the city of Miami...
but if you think city officials will ever let go of the Goose that's laying all theses golden eggs you would be mistaken. I understand that Coconut is viewed by the city as a "donor" community for everywhere else in the city but the "patient" is a in critical condition now and we need to keep as much of our tax revenues right here where it's desperately needed.
While we may have some serious disagreements on certain issues Tony I absolutely believe in your right to express your opinion.
Is an extra 120 minutes in the middle of the night actually worth it? Would the purchasing power of patrons from 3-5 a.m. really impact Grove businesses that much? Excuse my ignorance, but I'm wondering out loud here if the dollars that come into merhcant's doors at that hour would actually offset the operational costs of running their businesses at that time.
I think the real debate should revolve around the business benefits of operating at 3am-5am. I think if businesses show comunity members the numbers of why its good and then you might get additional support.
Chad, the real impact goes far beyond the dollars earned by a small number of businesses from 3 to 5. The real impact also hits restaurants and stores whose customers choose to go elsewhere because they might want to stay out late. These people used to come to the Grove for dinner, wander around shopping and having a drink here and there, and then maybe go dancing at a club. South Miami, Brickell and South Beach are booming while the Grove is like a ghost town. I made the motion at the Village Council subcommittee meeting after the owner of a very successful local restaurant who did not have a 5 am license talked about how much his business has been hurt by this law.
Tony, thank you for responding and understanding the need to be ANON. And Michelle has confirmed as well. That being said I know both of you personally and the next time I see you both in the hood I will make sure that you know who I am. Many of us are working as ANON to help make changes and defecting from the City is the best news yet. I bet Coral Gables will take us in as they now also need the tax base revenue? Or becoming our own small village/City is long overdue.
Tony, I too will remain anon for the same reasons stated previously.I also met you before quite some time ago... While we have been completely on oposing sides on this 5AM issue, I've sometimes have taken it personally when I shouldn't have, I do believe that your heart is in the right place and that you DO care for the Grove. I would also like for you to personally know who I am, and I'm willing to divulge that to you one on one.I will make an effort to speak with you the next time there's an opportunity to do so. In the mean time I'll try and make my points without the personal attacks.I believe that if I'm given that chance you'd quite POSSIBLY see another side to this discussion.
Regards
Chad C - please read the former posts and comments on the subject, of which there are hundred.
The issue has been thoroughly covered. It's not that X amount will be generated between 3 and 5, it's not even that most people actually stay out till then, it's about people thinking that they might want to stay out past 3am, and going elsewhere because there it's a possibility and here it is not. PERCEPTION.
They see the grove as the most restrictive liquor laws in Miami, which it is by far on many fronts in addition to the 3am law. They compare that to their other choices, where there is no restriction of that sort - then they make the easy choice - let's go where we can stay out, should we decide to do so. Not where we will be chased out of town at 3am.
Collins should go, he's too beholden to Sarnoff. He has not been an effective advocate for the very merchants he supposedly represents.
Repeatedly being woken up in the early morning hours to booming music and car horns from passing cars. People yelling at the top of their lungs as they walk by drunk at 5 am. Spending the next morning picking up uncountable amounts of empty liquor bottles, beer bottles & cans, cocaine baggies and even a crack pipe from the yard. Sweeping up shattered glass from the drive and hosing vomit off the sidewalk. Finding obliviated kids urinating in the pool or passed out in the bushes. Replacing plants that were torn out of the ground and tossed about in the street. Cleaning graffitti off of the mail box and intercom. This was a typical weekend morning back when CG drinking establishments served alcohol until 5am and their CGBD residential neighbors paid the price. What a differnce those 120 minutes have made to those of us who live near CGBD. The Grove is nothing like South Miami's Sunset Place That has US-1 as a neighbor or Brickell where everyone lives high above the racket. Let those residents deal with it and see if they like it. They can keep it!
Anon 9:39 why would you choose to live in an area where for 30 years has had noise? When I chose where to live I took into account what happens Thur-Sat nights. Now in the past 5+ years this situation in the Grove has become calm in comparison to the noise of the past. And the people are more civilized and what you describe above is tale of yester year. This has not happened recently even when everything could be open to 5 AM. You are obviously having a flash back to a time when the Grove was happening and to
the 80's. Please move you knew where you were moving originally and you knew the closing time was 5AM. Do not stop the hard working business owners and Grovites who are trying to make the Grove into the happening place again.
9:39 is simply making things up. This is all part of the smoke and mirrors campaign. From 2002-2007 I lived in center grove. I was out late regularly. I never had a single beer bottle, can or crackpipe on my property. Never had puke on my sidewalk (and it was on the main walking artery to and fro), and never found anyone passed out in the bushes.
These are the foolish lies of foolish (and prudish) people. They are simply making crap up. Do not listen to these Glenn Beck wannabes.
Anon 10:59, I agree. I lived on Virginia Street when the Grove was booming, Paololuigi was open, there was a club in the space above it, and dance clubs at CocoWalk and Mayfair with 5 am licenses, back in the day when there was traffic backed up on Virginia almost to US-1 around 11 or 12 heading into the Grove; then I moved to Day within a block of Virginia. I ran in the early mornings, before it was light outside. Even then, I never stepped in a puddle of puke, never had to step over a drunk on the sidewalk, never was harassed by anyone on the street, and only occasionally had to pick up empty bottles or drink cups from the swale. This exageration is starting to look like satire. How can anyone take it seriously?
Re: anon 9:39PM,
Wow, what a vivid imagination....
You are so full of Sh#@ I don't know where to begin.
You claim to live in the center Grove where a typical morning was spent picking up "uncountable amounts of liquer bottles in your yard". That's strange I don't know of a single restaurant/bar, past or present that sells "liquer bottles" to their costumers. One would have to assume that in order for your front yard to accumulate this staggering amount of liquer bottles that there must have been a hudred or so revelers parked right there in front of your house for hours on end.... doesn't make much sense to me lady.
This notion of the streets being overflowing with "vomit" every night just isn't very credible either, where is it all, I never saw it and I've walked home through the center Grove many a night. Frankly I see more dog Sh@# on the streets and sidewalks than I ever wittnessed with the "vomit", but I guess you own a dog so that's OK, right?
How bout this one.." finding Drunken kids urinating in your pool and passed out in your yard". What, these drunks broke in to your property so they could urinate in your pool. Why when they could have just pissed on your doorstep in the same place they love to vomit every night?
I really think if police dusted one of those "crack pipes" you find on your front lawn it would have your fingerprints all over it because you must be high if you think you're going to completely lie and distort the truth just so you can live in your own little vacume.
anon 9:39 says,
You claim that on Brickell "everyone lives above the racket". FYI, Brickell is much more densely populated with residents, some of whom live directly above these establishments. They seem to be able to find a balance.
There is a distinction that must be stated. Mary Brickell was developed long AFTER residents moved there, whereas Coconut Grove business district was here LONG BEFORE these few pains in the asses took up residence, unless of corse I'm speakin to Commodore Ralph Monroe's widow.
Grape we need yor help on this one!!!
Hot off the press, I received two phone calls from friends of mine that have children that attend Vangaurd School on main Hwy. Apparently Commissioner Sarnoff was at a monthly meeting last night held at that school. He was trying to convince all the parents to come out in force against the possible return of the 5AM in the Grove. I was told in no uncertain terms that Mark was "trying to scare the hell out of parents" telling them that they were about to be subjected to a torrent of drunk drivers that would kill and mame them and their children if they didn't come out and be heard this Thursday by the village council. Maybe I missed something but didn't the Village Council( at Marks urging) cancel any and all discussion on this matter? This is vintage Mark on display, lull your opposition to sleep and then plan a sneek attack. This one's even dirty for you Mark. He wants to surprise the village Council meeting with a room full of anxious moms and dads and be completely unopposed by any descending views.
We demand to know if the Village Council is going to allow this outrageous breach in protocol.If so we on the opposition DEMAND the same amount of time to rebut this disgusting attempt to usurp our due process.
SHAME ON YOU MARK!!!
Anon:
9:39, I assume you would have many police reports on your property if this were truly going on. Well, I check and no police reports matching your description of events.
Anon 5:52 You should hope you have your facts correct. I ahve not heard this but if this is true this is ground for impeachment. Let's start the impeachment process NOW.
Re: Anon 5:52,
If these allegations about Commissioner Sarnoff are true, which I am starting to believe they are given what other credible sources have been telling me, he really is starting to go off the deep end.
As I have said before and I will say again, there is nothing wrong with admitting you made a mistake. We allowed this ordinance to play itself out for over a year now and the results have obviously been negative. Save some face and listen to public opinion. That is what we put you in office to do, not to rile up a bunch of parents about something that is untrue.
To even think for one second that changing the closing times from 3am back to 5am would be dangerous FOR CHILDREN, is absurd. What responsible parent has their child out during those hours? How is that at all relevant to this debate?
Children do go to school early in the morning and parents do go to work early if they are nurses, teachers, drs., etc. and there are bikers and joggers out early on the road. Does anyone remember the family of 3 children that was killed recently rearended by a drunk driver after he dropped his wife off at Metrorail early in the morning?
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