Two places may benefit from the 5 am closings
Only two places in town right now will be able to close at 5 am if the law is reversed: Mr. Moe's and Temple Lounge. That's it.
There are four licenses out for this and two of the places are closed. There is one more that is in they City's hands and people will have to jump through hoops to get this.
So in essence if Mr. Moe's and Temple Lounge are allowed the 5 am closings, this will tell people that the Grove is open for business and will not affect other places.
There were five strategically placed licenses (Biscayne Baby's, which is the closed Anokha spot on Virginia Street now), the Mayfair had one, CocoWalk had one, Commodore Plaza (Mr. Moe's) had one and Temple Lounge had one. CocoWalk does not seem to want another 5 am club, so that is out of the picture for now.
So all the fuss is about two hours and two locations. And all the fuss is about perception. Opening these two places will be a simple step, will not affect anyone really, and will make all the difference.
There are four licenses out for this and two of the places are closed. There is one more that is in they City's hands and people will have to jump through hoops to get this.
So in essence if Mr. Moe's and Temple Lounge are allowed the 5 am closings, this will tell people that the Grove is open for business and will not affect other places.
There were five strategically placed licenses (Biscayne Baby's, which is the closed Anokha spot on Virginia Street now), the Mayfair had one, CocoWalk had one, Commodore Plaza (Mr. Moe's) had one and Temple Lounge had one. CocoWalk does not seem to want another 5 am club, so that is out of the picture for now.
So all the fuss is about two hours and two locations. And all the fuss is about perception. Opening these two places will be a simple step, will not affect anyone really, and will make all the difference.
posted by Tom Falco at 10:00 AM
YOU MAY NOT LIFT THE PHOTOS & TEXT. IT'S COPYRIGHTED INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. YOU CAN HOWEVER SHARE A STORY ON SOCIAL MEDIA BY USING THE LINKS HERE.
For linking to this one story, just click on the time it was posted & just this story will open for sharing - only through social media. Not copying and pasting.
50 Comments:
that is info i am sure most people had no idea about. I think lots of people assumed EVERY bar/pub/club would just instantly get the 5AM license and calamities would ensue.
if its only 2 open places with current licenses, this should be a no brainer.
though it seems like someone would want to snatch up anokha's remains and convert it into a club if it has one of these expensive & hard to get (I assume) licenses attached to it.
Brian, yes, it SHOULD be a no brainer, and would be if egos were not involved. It actually is not the Anokha space that had the 5 am license, it was the upstairs space above Anokha, and it is my understanding that the license there was either taken away or lost because the club there closed. If anyone wanted to open a 5 am establishment in the Grove in the future, they would have to get a Special Exception from the City, and conditions could be placed on it.
Eliminating the 3 am limitation on the Center Grove would not result in anarchy and rivers of vomit in the streets. It would just give us a couple of places where people could stay late if they want to, which might bring back some of the residents and other customers who have defected to South Miami and Brickell.
..."anarchy and rivers of vomit in the streets"...
If anyone wanted to open a 5 am establishment in the Grove in the future, they would have to get a Special Exception from the City, and conditions could be placed on it.
Sounds good in theory. In practice, here's how it always plays out:
To get the Special Exception, you first have to get a recommendation from the planning/zoning board. They are SUPPOSED to grant such an exception only after carefully considering the mixed-use (ie, residential, commercial) implications. Of course, residents and neighboring businesses never know when these things have been applied for, so by the time the zoning board has issued the recommendation (which they ALWAYS do), it's too late to contest it that stage.
Next, it goes to the city commission. And what you'll hear at this stage is "Well, it wouldn't be fair not to grant the special exception to this applicant, since Mr. Moe's down the street has one, and this wonderful applicant wouldn't be able to compete." Never mind that's not the legal criteria for issuing the exception, but it's a political (campaign donation) decision at that point.
And this is why the 3am restriction got passed in the first place. Sarnoff didn't have the power to make the zoning board do it's damn job, so he did the next best thing. There was a carbon-copy of Visions about to go into a RESIDENTIAL building, with OFFICE SPACE on the ground floor, for Gawd's sake.
Until we really address the underlying issues that led to the 3am restriction in the first place, we should leave it alone.
Leave it to officials and soon they will force businesses to close at 6pm while they will tax us by claiming they would protect our businesses from thieves at night. People, the way our community is being managed, we will for sure all end up a bankrupt.
Leave it in the hands of Commissioner Sarnoff. He really knows best.
after you get the special excepion does anyone know how much it is to get the license?
I think Oxygen should be included in that list.
Would it be inconceivable to vote on this and a couple more Grove issues? on a bright Saturday morning, City Hall, bring your 33133 Id's. All Businesses and Residents alike. I know.. just dreaming.. I bet the 5:am closings would prevail by a landslide. CI
11:16 LIES! why do people think they can come on here and just lie their dirty lie ridden asses off? I don't get it.
This particular liar has either never been before the commission on a zoning issue, never watched one or both.
It's nearly impossible to get any kind of exception to anything in the grove.
Further, Sarnoff never made any such zoning argument in pushing his lies and deciet that got the rule passed in the first place.
Finally, the carbon copy of visions is clearly made up, because no one would carbon copy a place that just went out of business. And the building itself has the control of who it rents to, as it should be, not the city commission.
If a building wants to have nightclubs on the ground floor and condos above, teh city commission should not step in and make that illegal. the market will solve that dilemma, because only people who want to live above a night club will live there. Done and solved.
don't understand Grape why you are not posting my comments, just because I am for the closing? I have not said anything crude or disrespectful, yes I am anon but most people are here.
Because you are stating facts without any proof. We know people are killed in accidents all the time. You are being anonymous and not showing proof that someone from the Grove at 5 am killed anyone. Show proof. State your name. Thanks.
So if it's just two hours and two locations, will it really make that much of a difference?
Are two places really going to bring back much of the business?
What good will it do everyone else?
People will be in S. Beach or wherever and at 2 or 3 am maybe head to Mr. Moes or Temple for an hour or 2 on their way home. How does that benefit the Grove?
Anon 12:31 you are correct the change from 3am to 5am for only 2 places will not save the Grove, however the perception and attitude might. The whole issue of the Grove being down is all about attitude and our internal bickering about seeing noise, expecting problems and possible drama. We are talking each other into believing ...
It has to stop, I do not care what the Beach or South Miami is doing, I do not live there. The Grove has so many positive things, the bike sunday, 4th of July, the block parties, the bed-race now halloween, etc. We need more of this with the noise and glutter that it brings, that is what the Grove was all about.
The condo association at Grove Square, where the former Quench space is located, should do an assessment, get a mortgage, and collectively purchase the space from its current owner. That's what Grove Towers did with its former nightclub space. Then, the residents can control what is allowed to go in there. End of problem.
That Guy, I think the reason someone compared the proposed club there to Visions is it was the same owner. The people who live there had reason to be concerned.
As a ex resident of Grove square who lived through Valentino's and Quench. You don't know what it is like to have a damn night club opened in your residential building. Immediately your whole standard of life goes to hell. Period. If you think this is an exaggeration, then simply place a stereo in a far room of your house. Put Hip Hop or House music on at a low volume but with high base. Then try to go to sleep. Do this for a few weeks then come here and promote a later closure. Before anyone pulls out the old "it's the grove you should have know" card on me. When I moved in, the tenant was a restaurant called the modern art Cafe and there was no noise. Anyone that has not experienced this in their life first hand should take a step back before pushing it on the rest of us. I, for one, am fed up with these loose arguments being posed in favor of the 5am time that have no basis in fact or consideration for the residents. I heard one delusional and naif individual at a glass house meeting actually suggest that the residents should invest in expensive sound proof glass and wall insulation as a viable way to keep from hearing the loud music illegally emanating from the clubs. He actually thought that every grove resident should invest $50,000 in our houses to allow for business to break the noise laws. This person was not even a business owner but someone involved in actually organizing part of the grove's direction. I shudder at the prospects of our village. Until some people grow some empathy this will be a bitter battle. Rest assured, that those of us who live here and raise our kid's here will not go down easily and will fight anyone that wants to deprive us of our home's serenity. We will fight you until you end up broke and destitute just like Valentino's and Quench. Either find a way to do business within the community you are in or go find another place. Do not try to change our community to better serve your coffers.
Re: "sounds good in theory"
Dear Commissioner Sarnoff's office, I mean anonymous...
You're still trying to scare the residents. Hell, Mark and Sue are running all around town telling anyone and everyone that'll listen that the sky's about to fall.
You just aren't telling it the way it is. You're telling me with a straight face that the planning and zoning board is rubber stamping any request for a special exception and that they're SUPPOSED to take into account all the residential/commercial implications of such a special exception but just ignore it?
I'm sure Lordes and Anna are thrilled at your confidence with their abilities.
"Next it goes to the city commission" and the applicants will say "what about Moes'? You know damn well that that type of arguement is BS and the city commission would be well within it's rights to tell that applicant to hit the road. I'm puzzled at your next statement that it's a "politcal discision/campaign donation at this point". Are YOU suggesting that there are city of Miami commissioners that can be bought? "Sarnoff didn't have the power to make Zoning do their damn job, so he did the next best thing"??? This is a very telling statement... Let's just do away with planning and zoning officials, code enforcement, city managers etc. and let Commissioner Sarnoff unlaterally make all descisions for all of Miami's citizens. Over my dead body!!
As far as the underlying issues that percipitated this unfair ordinance was the fact that there were establishments that just weren't managing their own businesses properly. Case in point was "Visions" night club (no pun intended). I'm sorry but it was as if it was being run by a bunch of monkies,...asaults, stabbings, excessive noise all night long. They even had a person thrown down an elevator shaft. They made trouble for merchants that WERE playing by the rules and not causing all these problems. Instead of adressing the problem with the offending bisinesses anyone who sold alcohol was villified. Mark, instead of going in and using a scapel you went in with an axe and slaughtered everyone who sold liquer. The Grove does not belong to YOU and your clan, it belongs to EVERYONE and EVERYONE'S CHILDREN. You can still do the right thing, It's not too late.... but it will be soon.
I just don't understand what the big deal is with allowing the one or two places that had a 5AM license before this ordinance went into effect to get it back. I'm not for the 5AM returning for everyone but there should have been a grandfathering for the places that had it.
For those of you that think only 2 places staying open until 5 am will not affect the whole grove, then you are sorely mistaken. It's just like the trickle down effect when they took away 5am. Even though only 2 places will get to stay open, that means more people are in the grove for more hours and it directly affects the businesses/bars that close at 3 am. When it used to be 3am, people would kind of get ready and head out of the 3 am bars, then they would head on over to Moe's for a couple more hours. Now, since everything is closed at 3, they start packing it up a little earlier, around 1 or 2 and take their party elsewhere. (not in the grove)
No there are not clothing stores or many shops open at this time, but it changes everyone's mindset. If we bring back the 5am, people will start coming back here knowing they won't get kicked out at 3am and that we want them back spending money here instead of going to SoMi or Brickell.
Let's remember the issue here: 3am vs. 5am closings. (I humbly propose 4am compromise, just for kicks). If a business is too loud, next to residence(s), it is a problem, regardless of the hour, 11pm, 1am, 3am or 4.30am, same difference. People sleep at those hours, right? So THAT needs to be addressed, separately: either the neighbor goes, or the business goes, or they learn to coexist and chill out, at ALL hours.
So much for the noise argument. About the "alledged" littering, public drunkennes, crime rates and whatever neo-puritan concerns.. 1 word: Police. Carlos Iglesia
Carlos Iglesia
I agree with 2:16
I lived in the Lofts at Mayfair and the constant "thump thump" was maddening at night.
To CI 12:07 PM
Are you kidding? Democracy is practiced only once every four years. Let's go back to sleep now everyone.
Temple Lounge & Mr. Moe's will now turn into the cool After Hours Clubs here in the Grove. Big in Manhattan Very Sheek & Very Cool if Marketed correctly. Good Luck to Both.
The Grove has so many great things going for it in addition to drinking, but it's always nice to have options. I wish Mr. Moe's and Temple well. We're not South Beach, and that works for me because if I wanted whole South Beach scene, I would live there. There are tons of places to drink and see cleavage in Miami, but nothing beats like the heart of the Grove. Nothing.
Anon 2:16 - your diatribe serves no purpose in this argument. You had an issue that you should have taken up with your homeowners assn. Not an issue which requires the government to step in and set curfews.
I will also add that the community was changed from 3am to 5am, we are only trying to change it back. ps. your property's value will drop by another 50% if the grove's businesses continue to fail at the current rate. that is a fact.
For - Lofts at Mayfair - you cannot argue that you were there before the noise, so live an learn.
ONE MORE TIME, IT'S ABOUT THE PERCEPTION THAT THE GROVE IS DEAD. This change will remind people that we're still a viable option.
I understand the need for some dining/entertainment venues to be open until 5am. What I don't understand is how anyone could say this is the ONLY thing that will save a "dying" Grove. The Grove needs shops, restaurants, galleries and activities (and needs to be kept up aesthetically), as well. To think a charming and cultural place like the Grove would become a ghost town if people weren't allowed to drink until 5 doesn't say a lot about the people we're trying to attract.
Mr. Moes has a right to make a business successful here if the people it draws in are people who stay out late. We don't need anymore businesses closing in Coconut Grove. Some one told me 12 alone closed last month. Been down Main Hwy lately?. Lets support our businesses as they help each other out by bringing people here. Don't make it so hard to make a living.
I agree, Florence. Keeping bars open until 5 isn't the life blood of our town. Let's not lose sight of the other attractions in the Grove, and PLEASE don't underestimate the spending power of the people who shop during the day and evening, go out to lunch, eat dinner between 7 and 10 pm and drink until midnight at the latest. They shop, they spend, they bring their friends, they eat, drink, hang out and support and promote our community. And never sell short the important of aesthetics - keep the Grove clean! Garbage/litter, chewing gum stuck to sidewalks, weeds are not attractions.
I am new to the Grove so I think I can offer a fresh perspective. I am for the 5am closings. I think it makes complete sense that people would go elsewhere just in case they might stay out past three. Maybe they only stay until 3:30 in the end, but it is definitely about perception. I agree we need more shops. When my parents came to town (tourist perspective) and went to the Grove they left saying there was nothing to see in the Grove after eating. I am admittedly new but that’s my 2 cents.
2 bars? I could live with that.
Welcome, Chelsee. You see, recently, a few influential people here just won't understand the History of our former Village, Cocoanut Grove, which was one of THE TOP hip places to go out at ALL hours for decades. They think all everyone does is drink after 3am. When actually, the Vast Majority of us silly consumers buy stuff, eat all night, and if - God-Forbid (should I say Sarnoff Forbid) someone had that extra beer or wine glass, or that UM student had a blast, like we all did in College, well we ate some more and walked home home with a smile. That's the Grove most of us remember. Businesses loved it. But that was B.S.: Before Sarnoff. Now I'm sure you and your friends, like everyone else, will have a great time at Brickell or S.Beach, all night long. Grovites? Mysteriously, we can just go above Bird Road, to Flannigans or catch a Taxi somewhere else after Papa Sarnoff sent us to bed. Go Figure, Chelsee. CI
Why isn't there a lawsuit against the City? I do not understand? They bar owners would win. Maybe the bar owners then would be afraid of retaliation? They have a great case. Maybe Michelle Niemeyer would represent them pro bono?
to Nichian: the only thing that beats stronger than the heart of the grove is having no heart at all. The rep the Grove has now is that it's dead and no night life. South Beach is vibrant with tourists. but i guess we don't want that. South Miami is vibrant with the locals including the Grovites, but i guess we don't want that either. What was south beach before the Clevender and the other clubs appeared? Well we're heading in that direction.
As for Michelle Niemeyer representing the bar owners pro bono, i have a better idea. Michelle for Commissioner. wv
Anon 8:39 - Chelsea gets it. I am for the 5 am closing, too. There will be places to drink until 5. The point she made was that we need to attract tourists and locals to our community ($$$$) with interesting shops, good restaurants, events and talent-filled art galleries in an beautiful environment throughout the day, evening and night (I don't think her parents wanted to drink until 5 am). The Grove is a package. We're selling ourselves short if we believe adding 2 more hours of drinking will "save" our community.
Just an FYI: Special excepotions are only granted after a public hearing in front of the zoning board. Notice of the hearing must be posted outside of the business. Notices must also be mailed to every resident and business address within a radius of the establishement (usually several thousand people).
If the residents who are affected do not want the business applying for the exception to be awarded a 5AM license, all they need to do is show up to the hearing and object to it.
Even if the exception is granted by the zoning board, the residents have a right to appeal the decision. The appeal gets heard by the full city commission; there is, at the commission level, another public hearing.
We all know how Sarnoff will vote at that hearing. The other commissioners will generally follow his vote since it is his district.
This is really an issue of perception, politics, and ego. Why Flanagan's is still allowed when Temple and Moe's are not is beyond me. Allowing Moe's and Temple to operate and other responsible owners to apply for 5AM licenses does not deprive the public of their right to object to the business. It does not allow a free for all where everyone can go out and get a 5am without an opportunity for public discourse on the subject.
To the person talking about shopping and having lunch in the grove. STart asking around - no one in the grove can support their business on lunch here. There's barely enough lunch business during the week to support 2 or 3 places. That's because there are few offices, so the only lunch crowd is the shop owner next door to your restaurant. Weekends, sure, weekdays, many of them wish they could just not open until 4pm, because opening at 10 or 11 actually loses money most days.
The grove is a nightlife place. Has been for the decade I've been here, and from what I hear, a lot longer than that.
interesting post at 10:37am. I live and work in the Grove in an office. Where to go to lunch is determined by the heat index (too hot to walk somewhere much of the year) and the parking options. Gardner's Market does a killer lunch because you can drive in, (eventually) park and eat there or take it back to the office. Same thing for Scotty's Landing. Calimari's, too. Interior restaurants suffer for lack of parking.
Re most of the other posts, I have to agree more with Florence and Noxy. The Grove has traditionally been the offbeat,quirky Bohemian (at times) village. We have chosen to live here because we find it to be beautiful, lush, near the water, diverse in population and easily accessible to any other venue. It's history reinforces that viewpoint. Bars staying open until 5am may be a draw for some residents and tourists but that is not what the Grove is really all about or what makes this still a desirable place to live. The Grove's cache still exists (ask most realtors) and it has nothing to do with bars staying open late at night.
i agree with Anonymous 10:37. Zoning has killed any chance of building class A buildings that would truly house law firms, broker dealers, accounting firms, etc. The Gables, Brickell, etc. have capitalized in that market and as such have a vibrant lunch scene. I guess what some people want is a small sleepy community where pets have more rights than business owners. i know, why dont we just tear down all of downtown Coconut grove and make it a big pet play area, cycling track, lawn chair, sunset watching, shuffle board playing, denture swapping, bingo yelling, all praise Sarnoff community. Ahhh. sounds like a little slice of Heaven
Re: Tony Scornavacca...
Thank you. I know how strongly you feel about your opinion and even though you were dead set against this 5am issue YOU have at least considered a COMPROMISE and I commend you for being a big enough man to meet opposing views half way. When this whole thing is over I'd love to buy you a beer.
Marylin i respectfully disagree. Restaurants are unfortunately opening and closing all of the time. Unfortunately some really good ones. Calamari's was just named Calamari's. And Pisco's had great food and atmosphere. The issue is not a shortage of restuarants, its shortage of people. wv.
why can't Mia fill in the empty club spaces in CocoWalk. Answer: 3 am. makes it non-competative vs Brickell, S. Miami, etc.
Just wanted to reiterate, while I don't think the 5am closings will be the only thing needed to help the Grove, I think it will help. I was kind of combining two points, maybe unsuccessfully. If someone is having a good time at 3am and wants to stay a bit longer but are kicked out to an empty street here in the Grove whereas on other areas they wouldn't be, I can't imagine they'd want to come back to that environment.
Nice point chelsee. Back when Moes and Flavour were open till 5, the other bars and restaurants would advise patrons starting at about quarter till, to head to those places. People that wanted to continue their night - WALKED DOWN THE STREET to the next place, on clubish, the other relaxing and with a full menu all night.
Now, the bouncers have a harder time clearing the space, can't give neighborly advice on patrons where to go, usually sending them to S. Miami or downtown, then the patrons head out of the area, thinking, "why did I come here in the first place, if i'm gonna have to end up elsehwere anyway. I might as well have saved myself the cabfare or DUI risk by just heading there in the first place." and we never see them again.
That Guy.....
I don't know who you are but you always seem to hit the nail on the head. You sir are obviosly much more in sinc than our own Commissioner with the crux of this whole argument. Can I convince you to show up at the next Village Council/Commission meeting to express your views on the 5am subject?
Note to commissioner Sarnoff:
Notice I didn't have to tell this individual that he would die a horrible death if he didn't show up!
Keep being vocal That Guy, The Grove shall rise from the ashes I promise!
All the negative comments on the Grove's lack of day/evening success worry me. Even if the Grove is open until 5 for drinking, etc., the businesses have to address what's not working during the day. Parking, messy sidewalks, garbage, uninteresting window displays, ineffective marketing, the homeless, crime? It's got to be more than poop in the park (although I do wish people would pick up after their dogs - it's a no-brainer). 5 am may make us appear cool, but if the businesses feel it's dead now during the day and evening... we need more than alcohol. Just for the record, I'm for the 5am closing.
If ONE life would be saved by closing the bars two hours early, then I think it is well worth it. Especially if it is your life.....
Sailfast, I don't think anyone wants people to die. I question if lives can be saved due to the time the bars close. Probably could if laws were enforced; noticeably drunk people cut off; if friends didn't let their friends drive drunk; if people who live in the Grove could walk to clubs in the Grove to dance to the wee hours instead of driving home from Brickell. Lots of lives could be saved if we didn't allow smoking, or had a 9 pm curfew where we all had to be locked in our houses, or if we banned McDonalds, or if we stopped allowing air travel because sometimes planes crash.
Michelle - Did you read oct 15. 8:16 and 11:41
Yes.
Great argument Michelle.
Every year 20,000 people die from power tools. I bet if we limit the hours of opperation of every Home Depot that we could save thousands of lives.
Just kidding Marc, leave HD alone!!
I've been away from Miami for the past few years. The Grove used to be THE place to hang out at night, late at night in particular and that's obviously not the case anymore. I've been in some puritanical cities that had 2 AM closings, and I've got to say 3 AM isn't much better. I don't think there should be any limit on when a place closes. If there are noise violations then those should be taken into account on a case by case basis.
Post a Comment
<< Home