Friends meet to discuss Glass House
Friends of Peacock Park (and their friends) met at the park yesterday, in the shadow of the Glass House, to discuss prospects for the Glass House. It was a nice, informal outdoor meeting, all meetings should be this nice.
The Chamber and NET office will be leaving the facility and everyone seems to have an idea of what should go there. The most common facilities would be a restaurant and/or snack shop or a community center. Most were in favor of both.
Commissioner Marc Sarnoff, who was present, said that the best thing would be to have the RFP (Request for Proposals) go out and see what comes back. I agree. Someone may come up with the most incredible idea if we just ask for ideas in the form of an RFP.
While the Glass House is part of the Waterfront Master Plan, there is no money to start the Master Plan and it was suggested that money raised through whatever is in the Glass House, should go into an escrow account to pay for that part of the park in the Master Plan.
The mangroves, which block the water view, were brought up, many want them removed or opened up some way, so that the bay may be seen clearly from the park. Glenn Terry had an old photo he passed around that showed the park back in the '70s or '80s. The photo showed a completely open waterfront. Apparently the mangroves arrived in the '80s as mitigation from developers who were required to pay back the City in this form, but what they did was put mangroves in from Kennedy Park, all along the water to Peacock Park, in essence, blocking the view at all of our parks.
Bryant Park in New York came up a lot, and Dave Collins passed around a colorful book which showed the creation of Bryant Park, which is totally funded by private corporations. This is how the Glass House and Peacock Park should be funded, as the City does not have a dime to contribute.
posted by Tom Falco at 9:00 AM
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36 Comments:
The glass house could serve as a local community and tourist center simultaneously, coupled with the park, library, Biscayne Bay and could be a worldwide advertized magnet. Allow a few lobster boats and fishermen to sell their fresh products at waters edge and this would not cost us one dime, just some simply straight-forward cooperative spirit.
I attended the meeting and felt that unless the residents get involved and ask questions and demand answers Peacock park will have a full service restaurant with a wine and beer license, full catering rights to the park and possibly the park could be eventually privatized.
Apparenty a consultant who has done work for the BID has also been involved with Bryant Park in New York. That is why Bryant Park is being brought up as a model(a privatized park).
Bryant Park is not a good model for Peacock Park for several reasons, main one is Peacock Park is in Coconut Grove and Bryant Park is in Manhatten. When we pointed out we are not surronded by sky scrapers with offices, one woman announced yes we are and pointed to the Sonesta.
In support of a community center I asked if anyone, Marc Sarnoff or his staff had spoken to the Key Biscayne Community Center or the Gables Comunity Center to see how they are successful and make it work financially. They all said no.
The carrot being used to lure people into this is that the restaurant would be a revenue stream to fund the Waterfront Project. I asked why with the current economy and empty storefronts we were opening another retaurant when so many are having a hard time. I was quickly told by Marc Sarnoff that is not true restaurants are doing very well and Greenstreets and Georges are doing better than last year. hmmm!
I heard people say I can enjoy my wine here with a view of the Bay. Well guess what, you can do that now at Panorama, the Sailing Club, Scotty's Landing, Chart House, and Monty's.
I heard very derogatory slang for children being used when we started discussions on the moving of the playground which bothered me alot - rug rats and brats.
I appeal to the community to call or e-mail the Mayor, Joe Sanchez and Tomas Regalado to save Peacock Park for the community NOW.
This RFP is being written and will be sent out. This park is the heart of our village. Many people in attendance at the meeting said Peacock Park is full of nothing but drug dealers and bums. Yet I looked around and saw children playing, skateboarders enjoying the ramps, a young woman reading under the trees and a group of dads trying to organize a small soccer game.
Right now St Stephens is being pressured to give right of way through their property so eventually the City can have permanant access to the park from Main Highway. Please ask Why?
Why would anyone at that meeting care about children. Neither Sarnoff or Nelson have children and frankly seem like dogs are more important to both of them than children. Of course they used derogatory language regarding children because they do not care. They must have had horrible childhoods themselves.
Parents spend money and both Key Biscayne and Coral Gables are successful. The Grove will not be because of this single sided.minded behavior. Personally I give up. Coral Gables here I come.
It wasn't Sarnoff and Nelson putting down children, they in fact want to move the children's play area closer to the street and the glass house, so they are more visible and not all the way in the back. Please don't start accusing people when you have no clue what you are saying. I had a converstion with Ron before the meeting and we both specifically liked the idea of making the place more family friendly.
The way I read it many years ago in Key West, some authority allowed a successful handyman to take control of the Truman Annex and a multi, multi million dollar project. Why? I guess the powers that be debated endlessly and got no where???? The BID, Mr. Sarnoff, someone from New York, this, that, talk, talk and more talk, more debate and in the end, what? The Truman Annex turned out just fine!
Grape, OK thanks for clarifying.
Apologies to Sarnoff & Nelson. Let's make this a kid friendly revenue generating venue. Instead of many going to Coral Gables Youth Center they can come to the Grove. While the kids are at activities the parents shop and post activities snack or dine.
Who wants to be the "handyperson" to take the lead on this project?
mangroves were there and across the entire coast before people settled here. Just because some one chopped them down before doesn't make it OK to do it again.
Let's wait and see what ideas are generated from a Request For Proposals.
Mangroves cannot be moved or relocated. They might be able to be trimmed - maybe some openings - penalties are heavy- huge fines and lawsuits.
First off I would gladly enjoy being the lead man. For example: I renovated homes in the Grove area for 25 years. Trimming Mangroves is a very easy task and BID could arrange the permitting. I would transform the glass house into a local community and tourist reception center and ask Officer Jose Quell to have an officer, more or less on hand 24/7 or available within, say, 2 minutes by phone. The Grape is a dedicated Grove unofficial information officer and an internet connection would keep us all up to date as to happenings. I would locate several fishermen who would bring fresh seafood in daily. Free water just like Shell lumber provides free coffee, water pop corn and candy treats. Maintenance on the glass house is no problem. The center would cater mostly to children, therefore the family, but singles alike. The main theme of course would be everything the Grove has to offer including looking East into the Biscayne Bay. Artist would be especially welcomed and free of charge, but no mass produced stuff from China. Where the shore meets the bay would be cleaned to perfection, rocks moved, can and bottles trashed and items from the Florida Keys such as old colorful lobster buoys, old colorful ropes, old lobster traps washed up on shore would be placed about by the hundreds. Get the picture? This is not labor intensive and would be basically free.
Anon 10:13, Respectfully, Mangroves can be moved and/or relocated and trimmed. You mean it is most difficult due to law that impose restrictions. Trust me, David Collins of BID can easily process the necessary paperwork. All of these task are extremely easy.
Request for Proposal (RFP)
Start Here
http://www.ci.miami.fl.us/capitalimprovements/pages/ProcurementOpportunities/ProjectPages/Forms.asp
This is a lot of paperwork!
Need input/help please.
David, or Jeff, Thorn or Glenn, do you have David Collin's number at the Bid or his e-mail? We have to chop down those few mangroves there. I'll take care of it sooner than later. Thanks. Carlos.
Carlos,
Firstly, you dont get to make the decision for everyone. I am 100% opposed to this as I am sure many in the community are. This type of change that legally requires public notice and comment period. Secondly you need a Class I Permit from Miami-Dade County DERM to trim mangroves. Thirdly, only the owner of the land AKA (city of miami) can apply for the class 1. Fourthly moving them would require a federal permit years of coordination with numerous federal agencies because there are numerous endangered species, the portion of the bay there is within Biscayne bay aquatic reserve, is within Johnson's seagrass critical habitat, essential fish habitat and adjacent to the barnacle which is a historic location.
Jobie Steppe has my vote.
Grape, thank you for keeping this issue in the spotlight.
anon@9.26PM: First, I don't know your name but I know of many others who would like to clear a few Mangroves and select Waterfront spots. That's one of the reasons we were there at Peacock Park, to exchange ideas. Just spoke with David Guzilowski from the Chamber, and he personally agrees with some of my ideas, (although they have no "official position" at this time. Reasonable neighbors like Glenn or Thorn who have lived in the Grove for many, many years and know the specific History about those mangroves tend to agree as well. Long story short, I'll also be in contact with David Collins from the Bid, to see what can be done. Carlos.
Jeff, yes, agreed, a lot of paperwork and David Collins of BID can direct his secretary or volunteer,(someone who does not hate this extreme paperwork made so necessary 2009 USA and most of the world) to process the paperwork while people like us do the physical labor, get the exercise and live a longer healthier life. The fact is I have labored for 60 years of my life and the labor required is very, very little.
Carlos,
Let me educate you a little here. First of all, in order to cut or remove them, you need a permit. Secondly, The only person who can apply for the permit is the city of Miami department of parks and recreation whom own the land. Thirdly, Mangroves are critical to the health of our aquatic environment. They are the nurseries for young fish and offer habitat to all kinds of important aquatic species. they are also used by endangered/threated species such as crocodiles (including the one living over there now), manatees, smalltoothsawfish They have already been decimated across much of Dade County and are heavily protected by both state and federal agencies. Whomever says its easy to remove them is lying. I have seen property owners fined over 12,000$ federally for unauthorized removal of mangroves.
Finally, the mangrove are essential for erosion control as well as reducing the damage from hurricanes. If they are removed, even within a small track, the high winds and storm surge will be accelerated through those gaps and take away everything in their path.
As for Jobie, I am putting you on notice that I intend to report any unauthorized work to DERM DEP, and the ARMY Corps of Engineers.
I am planning to draft a letter providing notice to numerous local environmental groups about these suggestions to adversely impact our coastal environment including Audubon, sierra club, the land conservancy and the ocean conservancy.
It absolutely blows my mind how ignorant people can be about the last few remaining functional portions of our coastal environment to even suggest removing mangroves for a view would be a great idea.
Meredith:
Please save your condescending, know-it-all tone and cheap "lessons' for a second here. Many of us are very well aware of the beneficial aspects of white, black or red Mangroves. Many of us are also fully aware of the regulations. And many of us also know the History of these mangroves in the Grove. Some of us have actually PLANTED mangroves by hand elsewhere. They surely are not endangered. Many uf us, including people in the Bid, the Chamber of Commerce and old-time nighbors like you see in these pictures right here would like to clear a few of the Mangroves to catch a glimse of the Bay, as it used to be 15 years or even 10 years ago. If you happen to disagree, respect other people's opinions, Oh Wise Lady. The fishies and the one lost crocodile will be just fine. (Talk about dogs, should a wild crocodile be there?) Plus Hurricanes didn't erode Peacock park in its entire History. Therefore, while you step off your high horse, I'll be working with the right people and officials to clear some Mangroves at the right spots. Seaside Mahoes at Kennedy park will also go. Carlos
During the early 70's, Amy Billig loved her "Meditation Garden" there at the south-east corner of Peacock Park, because she had a great View of the Waterfront, the Bay and the boats. Sunrises and all. Many old-time Grovites I've spoken with loved that too and now miss it. There are pictures and data to prove it. Nowadays, all we have is a blocked view, almost no waterfront spots in the entire Cocoanut Grove. There's an Aligator there instead, homeless people hiding in the Mangroves, and a lot of trash, if you notice. I wouldn't take any kids to Amy Billig's trashed corner with the crocodile and no view right now.
Here is what Biscayne bay looked like prior to us clear cutting then entire coastline.
http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/small/sm1621.jpg
Brickel avenue in the early 1920s.
I don't know about you but I have never seen mangroves so large. they must have been centuries old.
I do not consider the 1970s as our benchmark of how we should be managing our unique waterfront. There was a reason we passed the bulk of our environmental legislation from the clean water act to the endangered species act.
But who am I to decide for everyone? At the end of the day, all I want is a fair dialog on the issue with all stakeholders included.
Len Scinto:
Hi all especially Meredith above:
There is a realtively "new" field of study and mentality called "reconciliation ecology" which seeks to share the anthropogenically altered environment with "nature". Examples include reducing use of residential pesticides to encourage natural pollinators, planting trees that encourage pollinators and native species such as butterflies (as we have done on US1 and many other places in the City). Point is we are urbanizing the natural landscape and if we are to develop some level of sustainability we have to "naturalize" the Urban environment. Specifically, in this case, leaving and even encouraging the Mangroves. Other things such as protecting the UDB are part of the same. An earlier post that was removed talked about a Croc by Dinner Key. it is appreication for this stuff that will become increasing important since soon 80% of the worlds population will live in Cities - somewhat removing humantity even farther from "nature's social union".
You are also right about the past not being a good indicator of what should be there now. If that was the case then most of the Eastern forest should be gone because at one time almost all areas of forest were harvested and what we now have is second albeit "old growth" forest.
Peace
Len Scinto:
You make reasonable points but I can't entirely agree. All we are talking about here is clearing a few mangroves from a small corner at Peacock Park. Just to open up a little Bay view. The way it was 40 years ago. As a Sierra club active member who planted dozens of beneficial mangroves on virginia Key, I understand your point of view. Many old-time Grovites and well-known members of the community, even Chamber officials i spoke with and Bid people happen to agree with this modest and extremely logical idea. Ask around..
About the Crocodile there at the Bay, all the trash and the homeless people, no water view, what's your opinion? Again, I wouldn't take kids over there at Amy's Meditation Garden trashed corner right now, for their own safety and enjoyment. CI
A few mangrove is ALL WE HAVE LEFT!!!
Check out this photo of clearcutting in Miami Beach (which was an island of mangroves originally.
http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/reference/rc03720.jpg
Here is a close-up of them.
http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/prints/pr06934.jpg
We have really gone to the point of no return. It is critical to protect the little of what's left.
"A few mangrove is ALL WE HAVE LEFT!!!"
I hope you're not even close to serious, Meredith. I'm way more concerned about that vicious dog-eating Crocodile there at the homeless park with zero view. Carlos
The croc is very docile and not a dog eating crocodile. Leave the mangroves alone.
Docile Croc? You are actually serious? Next time I see it the City trapper will be there to remove it in half an hour. Crocodiles belong in the Everglades, not in your backyard. That dark corner, trash all over, homeless people and a croc.. just don't walk your dog or take your kids over there..
Can we discuss other issues regarding Peacock Park?
What about the "Glass House" future.
Raising funds for small projects, etc.
Don't get bogged down (no pun intended)with the Mangroves.
Thanks
Anonymous 8:30, you need to check Florida history before you make stupid comments. We are actually in the croc's habitat, not the other way round.
Anonymous @9am: Since you are so smart and polite, why don't you bring a few prehistoric "docile" crocodiles to your home and play with them as cute, domesticated pets? I'm having that crocodile removed and relocated back to where it belongs, by the City officials. before someone gets hurt. If you like nice, cute 5 foot Crocodiles so much, I can only suggest you go out camping in the Everglades. Hopefully they won't snack on your dogs. What do you think those wild beasts eat to stay alive, vegetables or gourmet Sushi?
Feed anon 10:39 to the Croc and leave the mangroves and the crocodiles alone! Actually, the crocs belong here and that's why they keep coming back. This is their natural habitat and every time I see one I celebrate the survivors. Realize that all of the damage and destruction that we have wrought on our environment can be repaired. We can rebuild the bird, fish, reptile and animal populations in our environment. We can replant the trees that we have chopped down. But unfortunately the type of attitude expressed in the above comments is what got us where we are today. We need to replace the mangroves that have been removed in order to return balance to the bay ecosystem. It's unfortunate that an "enlightened" few can be so blind.
http://yachtpals.com/story/crocodile
Crocodiles are listed as threatend on the endangered species list. Removal requires the ok of Florida Fish and Wildlife. However they are more hessitant to move them because they have an incredible built in navigation system and will return to their hangout within days, sometimes 24 hours.
Also whomever says Crocodiles are dangerous is ignorant. Its not to say they cannot attack a person, but unlike the Alligator, they are not usually agressive. In fact there has never been a reported case of a crocodile bite on a human in Florida.
http://myfwc.com/WildlifeHabitats/Crocodile_Nuisance.htm
I think this point they make is very important for SOME in the grove to hear.
"For crocodiles to continue to recover, people must be willing to coexist with them whenever possible. If you see a crocodile, consider yourself lucky - crocodiles are rare and reclusive and few Floridians get an opportunity to observe them!"
I already spoke with the Fish and Wildlife Commission representative today. They will be incontact with some Peacock Park people and with me via e-mail. Just in case any Crocodile or Alligator shows up again. I also spoke with the Sailors Club folks. If THEY see a Crocodile again, it will be immediately relocated to a safer environment. Obviously. Pets and children don't mix with Crocs, do they? Whomever thinks a 6 foot wild Crocodile is nice to have in our public parks is probably not thinking about their own pets or children or has ever seen one. Gotta love all wild life, but be reasonable! We will have a meeting with the Sierra Club there at Sailors' on Monday, 7pm. All are cordially invited. Carlos.
Meredith,
I appreciate your good intentions but hey, a bayside park with no view?
Crazy.
95% of our shoreline is privately owned, houses and condos with clear views of the bay. Why don't you give them a few mangroves and let the pubic see the bay again in Peacock and Kennedy parks?
It seems to me one more case of the public getting screwed again.
Mangroves aside, I think we need to focus on the main point, returning Peacock Park to being something we all can enjoy again. That effort starts with the Glass House.
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