Are new sidewalks a waste of taxpayers' money?
The Coconut Grove Park Homeowners Assn. and others in the North Grove are trying to get crosswalks and sidewalks put in on Tigertail and other areas. Homeowners are concerned about getting to Kennedy Park and basically the rest of the Grove and they would like easy access, especially with baby strollers.
Other neighbors (a handful) object, saying that it's a waste of taxpayers' money and that the swales should not lose their ambiance with ugly sidewalks.
I would normally agree about the sidewalks, but when you think about it, sidewalks would probably be so much nicer than all that ugly stuff there now, which selfish neighbors put up to prevent others from parking on the swales -- those white half circle things and the illegal pointy things and even the yellow police tape at Arts Festival time. (Some neighbors are just not neighborly).
Also, in these days of going green, isn't it a great thing that people want to walk to the Center Grove and to the Parks rather than drive? Shouldn't they be accommodated with the most common of things -- sidewalks and crosswalks? And these are young families, too, something needed in the Grove.
Other neighbors (a handful) object, saying that it's a waste of taxpayers' money and that the swales should not lose their ambiance with ugly sidewalks.
I would normally agree about the sidewalks, but when you think about it, sidewalks would probably be so much nicer than all that ugly stuff there now, which selfish neighbors put up to prevent others from parking on the swales -- those white half circle things and the illegal pointy things and even the yellow police tape at Arts Festival time. (Some neighbors are just not neighborly).
Also, in these days of going green, isn't it a great thing that people want to walk to the Center Grove and to the Parks rather than drive? Shouldn't they be accommodated with the most common of things -- sidewalks and crosswalks? And these are young families, too, something needed in the Grove.
posted by Tom Falco at 12:01 PM
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37 Comments:
Those nasty neighbors like Coral Gables which makes it impossible for sidewalks. Sure its nice but is it functional?
if you want to encourage more walking, this is the fastest way to do it. all the neighborhoods out from center grove should have sidewalks accessible to center grove.
with the way jackasses in miami drive, this is a smart move. especially if you're looking to attract young upwardly mobile residents with kids to the neighborhood.
i'm all for it. what happened to the people who wanted a sidewalk on mcdonald st?
OMG- PLEASE TELL ME THIS ISN'T HAPPENING! The money is obviously burning a hole in someone's pocket and they feel they must spend it on "improvements". Please leave the streets alone and the swales alone. All they will result in is less landscaping, and more aggressive curbing that will injure walkers and cyclists who trip on them. PLEASE LEAVE IT ALONE!
Speaking of young families: why are there never any postings or concerns about the schools here in the Grove? Why has CG Elementary sunk to a B school 2 years in a row. Don't we deserve better? Have you seen the schools web site? Outdated and useless. This is unconscionable.
Unbelievable how some people can be against sidewalks, where at all possible. What do you do, if you want to exercise, or just go to the Market, or visit a neighbor or to Center Grove to the movies, get a pizza for lunch.. Hop on that SUV, and then deal with parking, then the doctor telling that your are obese? Wanna go to Kennedy Park, or Peacock or Alice Wainwright parks, or from the circle, continue to Old Cutler.. Be careful. If you're a runner, keep your eyes on the Lunar landscape, or an entire year of training goes down the drain with twisted ankles or worse falls.
Every half-civilized City in the World, especially in Europe or even in places like Bogota, Sidney, right here in Portland, Colorado, etc, they all give great regard to Sidewalks, and Bikepaths. See, humans have 2 legs, and they are supposed to use them, that's one of the great ways to enjoy life and be healthy.
So why would a young family with some sense want to move to places like Tiger Tail or Main Hwy? Even seasoned sports people, runners and bikers avoid it inasmuch as possible. It's plain and simple: dangerous, full of holes, no sidewalks, no bikepaths, full of cars.
Wherever possible, sidewalks and bike lanes should be built, and in many places just re-vamped, smoothed-out, painted, as some of them (not bike-paths in the Grove, they do not exist, sidewalks I mean) date back to the 60's or 70's.
Our "representatives", guys like Manny Diaz or mr Sarnoff say (in writing and in person) that they agree, that there are some "vague plans" to improve conditions for pedestrians, runners, bikers, skaters.. but that there are budget issues, conflicts between "counties", etc, like Grovites aren't generous enough with their taxes.. Of course, most of those monies go away to the insatiable City of Miami. Blah, Blah, blah, politics as usual.
Try raising a couple of kids, and run the new baby on the stroller, if you're a Dad down S.Bayshore Drive, like I see some brave parents every day. Takes guts, a great insurance policy and some nerve..
What do a lot of us do? Take the car close to Key Biscayne or to the parks where you can walk, run or bike in peace, and safely. You should see the City of Weston, for instance, I drive 1 hour back and forth every week over there just to bike and run in peace.
No wonder that place and others are growing by leaps and bounds with young families. Carlos Iglesia
Sidewalks would encourage more foot traffic, which means fewer cars, which means less congestion. And it makes the town center more of a town center. Many of the swales are filled with dead or dying plant-life and garbage. Overall, the Grove needs to take more pride in it's appearance and accessibility. And no, I'm not on the council.
I agree.. and also offer another viewpoint, as a driver - I HAVE to take Tigertail every day, I am so tired of getting stuck behind cyclists who team up in pairs and take up the entire lane, they are going 10 mph at best and could care less if they have a line of 10 cars behind them as they chit chat. I think we need something to make EVERYBODY happy - and yes, that is drivers of SUV's (me) who cannot walk everywhere with a baby, a toddler and a car full of groceries.
Just plant some grass- that's all you need to walk on. what's the big deal? We don't need more heavy, over engineered crosswalks.
This isn't a want, it is a NEED!!! I drive, walk, ride or skate tigertail every day. Every time it sucks. The fact that there isn't a sidewalk from 17th to Aviation along tigertail on one side or the other is an embarassment and just plain ridiculous.
Easystroller - there is no way you live in the North grove and wrote those words. So, why are you against those of us that do having safe access to the rest of the grove? And what landscaping is there beyond people's fences (they are pretty much all fenced yards)?
Any main access road such as aviation should have sidewalks the entire length of it. No question. And either 22nd and/or kirk should have a sidewalk going to the parks. people coming down that hill don't see pedestrians till the last second.
In all fairness, however, it's not all that bad all around the Grove. We are blessed with nice parks and SOME half-decent sidewalks, although most of them are in dire need of maintenance.
One of the reasons of the big success and crowds filling the streets in Central Grove, is that we have ample "sidewalks" or space for pedestrians to Walk in. That's why people drive their cars over there, go through some parking hustles and expenses, just to be able to -- you guessed-- WALK leisurely over there.
That's how most great Cities and places like the grove become big attractions: just by letting people walk around safely to enjoy the day. And that's why you hardly EVER see anyone in places like Tiger Tail walking around, except for a few daring Peacocks or some neighbor taking out the trash. Sidewalks mean life, people, and business. That what the great cities like Paris London or Rome know all too well.
Sidewalks are fine if they ONLY put in sidewalks. But sidewalks usually also mean they are also putting in curbs which I have a big problem with. Curbs are dangerous:
- to pedestrians (especially kids) who trip and fall on them
- to cyclists who can not pull off the road when they need to
- to cars who, when they break down or get a flat, must remain on the road creating a danger to the driver and a nuisance to other vehicles
So sidewalks? no problem. Curbs? I am deadset against them and will fight to keep them out.
Ana Miranda: As a biker AND driver, I understand your point of view, and you are right: Bikers shouldn't take the road, in pairs or pelotons, especially in narrow streets like Tiger. It's a lack of consideration, lack of Education and even Law enforcement rules.
I rarely take Tiger Tail, because it's a mine-field and will mess up the bike. When we do, we respect the cars, and go single-lane, as fast as possible, especially on weekdays, when people are in a hurry to get to work, and S.Bayshore is Chaos, bumper-to-bumper at places.
We can do do that and actually EXCEED Tiger Tail's Speed Limit, we can go 20 mph, if there were so many holes, and we often do, just to get the heck out of there into Key Biscayne.
Bikers need to be respectful and need education, single lanes, obey the traffic signs, and all. There are rules. Cars need to know the rules too, which most do not, either.
And, for cars and bikes and pedestrians, runners to safely and harmoniously Coexist, people like you and me need to SPEAK UP. I've been trying for a looong time now.. Politicians need to fix this mess with better roads, building bike lanes, sidewalks, signs, paint, asphalt, educating both bikers and motorists, and enforcing the Law. We are soooooo far behind at that compared to many cities worldwide.. Carlos Iglesia.
The sidewalks are existing they only added ADA (American Disabilities Act) ramps to the existing sidewalks and then will be adding a crosswalk. The addition of sidewalks around the Grove hopefully will come later on major access roads (27 Ave, 22 Ave etc). There has only been 1 complaint and otherwise many positive comments and feedback.
I think we should all applaud safer streets and safe access to parks and schools!
Carlos Iglesia,
Yes we get it. You want a bike path. You are in the minority. Please take your spandex and fancy bike an move to Key Biscayne. That way we dont have to read another rant about how biking in the grove sucks. I ride my bike everyday on tigertail with no problems. Thank you.
Carlos, If bike paths are ever put into the Grove, Tigertail will not be the place. So give up dude.
The bikers are rude and take up the streets 5 or 6 wide, they don't let cars through and if you think they are going to stay single file on bike paths you really are dreaming.
I take 22nd Avenue and Tigertail every day back and forth to work. One of the reasons we live in the Grove is for the tree canopy. Grass will not grow in the shade, so grass swales are not possible. Bottom line: sidewalks are easier to maintain than grass in the shade.
As a person who moved to the Grove three years ago and LOVE it BECAUSE I can walk EVERYWHERE, I am totally and avidly supportive of sidewalks. ESPECIALLY ON SOUTH BAYSHORE DRIVE FROM KENNEDY PARK TO WHERE IT JOINS IN WITH OTHER SIDEWALK SPACE!
GO SIDEWALKS! I love the idea. I think we need more sidewalks. I am sick of walking along the side of the road in certain areas around the Grove!
I agree with Judi Kregg, most swale areas are a disaster. They never look good and there are no exceptions on Tigertail. The grass is dead or on it's way to being dead. I also agree we should applaud any and all improvements.
Sidewalks = safety. As a child I was struck by a motor vehicle while crossing the street so that I would walk to school on the side of the street that offered sidewalks. After my accident, the city put in sidewalks on my side of the street to offer a safe walking route.
Do we need an accident in Coconut Grove to convince you that sidewalks would benefit the community?
I'm really amazed at the voracity in the choice of language for debate in this city. But back to sidewalks...
As a long time Grove visitor and now resident, I too would very much like to see sidewalks. I'd prefer to walk on a sidewalk, away from the beyond speed limit moving cars. I like the ADA corner curbs which allow me to take my wheelchair-bound father out to see the outdoors.
North Grove has needed these sidewalks for an eternity. Then pedestrians can stay out of the car's way in sunshine and during the rain. It seems so logical to pursue safety.
BTW, heated debate here is not really getting your voice out to the agencies that put forth these projects. Do speak up AND then tell the folks who effect these projects.
"Do we need an accident in Coconut Grove to convince you that sidewalks would benefit the community?"
Unfortunately, that's what it might take, along with a few more bike-car accidents.
theaterdrm: 2 words, amen and....of course! And I will add this, Grape, you sometimetimes allow for some personal bashing, and not for the polite reply. Let's see if this flows. CI
No sidewalks?
The swales will lose character?
Curbs are dangerous?
Are these people part of this world?
Tigertail is fine how it is. why does the city need to go around meddling in stuff that isn't broke. Stop wasting our money and see about lowering prop taxes instead.
I really don't see how putting in sidewalks could possibly be a waste of taxpayer money... do people really prefer to walk and push baby strollers/wheelchairs in the middle of the street?
I actually think the diffcult part about it is that because there are some sidewalks in front of some properties, but then they end it can be tricky to actually use them. I suppose that if everyone had grass that was easy to walk in and manicured, it would work. However, as things are now, there is no sense of continuity from one property to another and there are boulders and other debris in the way. So, the only way to get around is to walk in the street.
I hope they put sidewalks everywhere in the grove!
Most of the people complaining that we don't need sidewalks and crosswalks are probably the people that should be using them the most! Look in the mirror people you know who you are and YOU NEED EXERCISE! Get out of your cars and SUV's and go Green and get healthy. Teach your children the importance of being environmentally friendly and Green at the same time. If you do not have children teach your pet, No pet do it for yourself.
And in order to get healthy and go Green we need safe pathways!
Wake up Coconut Grove!!!!!
Oh yes and you drivers look both ways coming out of Fresh Market, Ransom Everglades and Carrollton, they are sidewalks and other intersections!!!
And if you see someone crossing in a crosswalk anywhere in the Grove try stopping instead of accelerating. I know this is a hard concept to grasp but it works!
This shouldn't be remotely controversial. I live just a few blocks from Monty's, but gave up walking there with my family years ago because you cannot safely approach,let alone cross, the intersection of Aviation and Tigertail on foot. Especially not with children. Try it some evening, and you'll see what I mean.
Sidewalks are needed.
It was dangerous for our 2 yr old to walk and ride the baby bike in the street.
It's a nightmare for families.
I take issue with calling neighbors "nasty" when they choose to maintain the swales abutting their properties by landscaping and prevent illegal parking that destroys landscaping and turns the Grove into a muddy swamp everytime it rains. The City does not maintain the swales abutting properties, so it is up to property owners.
Sidewalks and crosswalks are great (and safe) when they are maintained. The City does not even maintain the roads in the Grove. Why do we think they will maintain new sidewalks and crosswalks?
Bikers should use the road, not sidewalks. My daughter (in a stroller) and I regularly get run off the sidewalk by folks on bikes; this weekend was no exception. Bikers should bike on bike paths or on the road, not sidewalks. Isn't that the law?
ridiculous eyesore waste of money! I don't want a sidewalk built through my yard OR my swale. Who is responsible for this- the city commissioners, public works? Is this a plan in action or are people just speculatin?
Sidewalks urbanize a neighborhood. You want sidewalks in the business district, along access roads, around churches and schools. On residential streets, it's not so clear. Do you want to encourage foot traffic around residences? There is a tendency to ride bicycles on sidewalks, which is dangerous - also illegal, but people do break these laws.
Sidewalks are generally installed by the municipality and the property owners assessed for the cost. The property owner is responsible for maintaining the sidewalks and is liable in event of accident.
Perhaps the best solution would be a compromise. Put the sidewalks in the areas with foot traffic, and leave neighborhoods that don't want them without.
to Anonymous (go figure) 2:57 pm Fact: you do not own the swale, the CITY does.
I'm sure this has been mentioned already, but in addition to much needed sidewalks (we live in a city, get over it) an overpass for route one would also be a welcomed use of whatever money is left in the piggy bank.
Crossing route one to get to the metro is a nightmare. I don't know how many times I've almost been plowed into at the intersection of 1 and 27.
Anon 2:43 - can you please explain to me how a sidewalk encourages parking in front of your house?
Do you even live on tigertail?
Bikes are not allowed on sidewalks, so that concern is removed, your other concerns were parking on sidewalks - also illegal.
Re-reading I can't tell what your after other than to yell at people for "nasty" comments and defend your use of those pointy things. Am I right?
This is why I get so frustrated when people want to talk at city meetings - they don't stay on subject, lack focus, confuse issues and just come to talk about things not on agenda. It's so frustrating I usually leave angry.
"A referendum on sidewalks - well, I better start ranting about illegal parking..."
To anon at 2:43..There are bike paths in the grove ? Are they covered over by the swales and illegal landscaping on these swales. I know I am geting off the subject, but even w/o sidewalks the swales could be turned into safe bike lanes (if there was $ )
BTW, what you are calling a "swale" is actually a park strip. A swale is something entirely different. See dictionary.
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