5 am liquor licenses
Chairman of the Village Council, Michelle Niemeyer, left a comment on a previous post, but not all of you may have seen it. It pertains to the 5 am liquor licenses. I think she makes total sense. This is part of what she said:
One problem we have is that nightclubs are so profitable you can make more money in the Grove renting a big space and leaving it empty all day, opening at 10 pm and closing at 5 am, than you can if you have a full service restaurant that is open during the day. We do not want the Grove to become an empty club district during the day, dominated by places that are only open at night -- at least I don't. My solution to this problem would be to ONLY allow establishments that are full service restaurants open for lunch and dinner to have 5 am privileges, places like Mr. Moe's and the Loggerhead.
Love that idea. It almost encourages two businesses in one -- a restaurant during the day and a club at night.
One problem we have is that nightclubs are so profitable you can make more money in the Grove renting a big space and leaving it empty all day, opening at 10 pm and closing at 5 am, than you can if you have a full service restaurant that is open during the day. We do not want the Grove to become an empty club district during the day, dominated by places that are only open at night -- at least I don't. My solution to this problem would be to ONLY allow establishments that are full service restaurants open for lunch and dinner to have 5 am privileges, places like Mr. Moe's and the Loggerhead.
Love that idea. It almost encourages two businesses in one -- a restaurant during the day and a club at night.
posted by Tom Falco at 8:09 AM
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22 Comments:
Unfortunately, Sarnoff wants to let the wealthy enjoy Coconut Grove. It this type of attitude that destroys what Coconut Grove was built upon. The article in the Herald which shows how he really feels is just one of many problems that Sarnoff has brought to light about the way he represents Coconut Grove. The biggest losers here are not only the businesses and Coconut Grove residents, that just want a night cap; it is the Coconut Grove residents who work these shifts to make ends meet and make a living from it.
it is hardly a new concept that a club should play a dual role as a restaurant during normal business hours. hundreds of establishments all over miami already do this.
the problem is it takes a lot more talent and business smarts to operate a restaurant than it does a club where all you need are bartenders. selling food - lunch especially - is a loss leader for establishments that reap the bulk of their profits from booze marked up 1000 percent.
still, it's a good idea to make clubs contribute more to the scene during the long hours before midnight when the cash registers really light up.
It doesn't take much to realize that Sarnoff wants the Grove to appeal to all masses including the wealthy who now take their money and guests to Merrick Place and Bal Harbour to shop and Coral Gables to dine.
If you want a nightcap after 3am maybe you should keep a bottle of your favorite libation at home.
Question: The Herald article stated "Only establishments at downtown Coconut Grove locations, such as CocoWalk and Streets of Mayfair, would be affected." This leads me to believe that Moe's would not be affected by this measure. Can anyone familiar with the situation confirm this?
I think Moe's is included in the downtown area, I think they mean places like The Loggerhead (Flannigan's) establishments in that area of the Grove are NOT affected. Although I wish The Loggerhead would become a team player and join Code 33 already. I have asked them 100 times. They get all the perks of the Grove, but don't contribute anything.
In reponse to anonymous that wrote: If you want a nightcap after 3am maybe you should keep a bottle of your favorite libation at home.
It's not a matter of drinking something at home, it's a matter of having the freedom to enjoy Coconut Grove at different times, the freedom to have that in Coconut Grove is one of the little attractions that some residents enjoy. Bottom line, they should do some research and find out how much this will affect those businesses before making any rash decisions.
Restrictions are always a backwards way around solving a problem, in my opinion. The ills that the Grove has at this moment are not directly a result of places staying open later, even though they might be related. Thus, the solution to these ills is still out there, and being avoided by simply trying to impose this silly restriction.
I challenge us all to think of better, more community implemented solutions, rather than just using a closing restriction.
The thoughts on the restaurants is good (that they bring business all day), but realize that if clubs stay open till 5 AM just like the restaurants, the club patrons will walk over to these restaurants and give them even more business.
I think a solution needs to involve the dead club space being used more in the day, or perhaps have them pay some sort of extra fee.
3:00 am closing should be quite adequate.
Don't we want law abiding shoppers and diners in the Grove? During the day and early evening?
No bar should be open past 2 am. Period. Remember, nothing good happens after midnight.
WHAT HAS 5 AM BAR CLOSINGS HAVE TO DO WHAT PEOPLE DO DURING THE DAY IN COCONUT GROVE? ITS TWO DIFFERENT ISSUES WHATS SARNOFF UP TO?
Try reading Niemeyer's comment and you'll see what one has to do with the other.
Yes, Sarnoff was a total meathead for making the comment that he did. He definitely carries hints of an elitist attitude and argues for personal gain (see also: traffic circle conveniently placed outside his residence that was totally unnecessary). His comment about "keeping the wealthy in the Grove" does hold a little merit, but I dont think its a case of removing what already exists here. Hell, most storefronts are completely empty, so why doesnt Sarnoff appeal to his luxe providers to take up residence?
The Coconut Grove residents and constituents are generally a very educated and wealthy group. There are thousands of homes and condos worth over $1 mil. Sarnoff represents everyone. What is the public purpose of allowing out-of-towners to come into the Grove after 3:00 am if all these out-of-towners want is to drink and commit crimes?
I support closing the clubs at 2:00 am. Maybe this will force the clubs to market to a better crowd or maybe it will allow the current early morning customers to go home and get some sleep.
Miami is renowned throughout the world for its late-night partying. It's what sets us apart from other American cities, excluding NYC, Vegas and New Orleans (at least before Katrina).
To think that by changing last call from 5 a.m. to 3 a.m. is going to reduce crime and suddenly get rich people to start shopping at Cocowalk is a joke.
Sarnoff should take note the Merrick Plaza was unable to fill its mall with high-end clients and was forced to take on stores that you would find in any mall, such as Victoria's Secret and Bath and Body Works.
I grew up in the Grove and still live here and I am often out in the Grove having drinks at the various bars and clubs after 3 AM. I'm in my late 30s and not a college kid but I still should be able to grab a drink in a designated entertainment area. That's why I live here!!! I voted for Sarnoff but I disagree with him on this one. Bars and clubs are the origin of the Grove and part of its fabric.
The real solution is to put a reasonable number of police in the area. We have no police coverage in the Grove. The solution is not to punish law-abiding citizens due to a few delinquents by creating more laws, just ENFORCE EXITING LAWS.
This is just another loss of our rights as Americans. If the "wealthy" don't like the Grove atmosphere they should not have moved here. The clubs and bars where here before them. The Grove should remain the Grove, not Coral Gables or Aventura. We already have hundreds of over-expensive shopping malls in Miami.
People talk about the Grove and its partying history like it happened yesterday and not 25 years ago. Things have changed. Beer is no longer 75 cents and the hippies died off decades ago. The typical club customer out at one of the 4-5 clubs open after 3:00 am is likely as not to be uneducated and has a criminal background. There is a reason clubs have metal detectors and off-duty cops. It is no accident there are stabbings and fights. Ever walk the stairways of CocoWalk? Smell the urine? Want to guess which clubs customers piss in the stairwells? Think that helps attract daytime shoppers?
Ridiculous... your trying to solve issues which are somewhat related but not directly tied. All the problems mentioned are due to the "type" of clientele and lack of police, not the time. There are reasons schools have metal detectors also, but I don’t see them limiting school hours. The pee comparison is even more ridiculous, the person that pees in the stairwell will do it at any time, to solve that you need to remove that profile from the Grove. The change in time will have little to no impact to the larger reasons why its being passed.
I have not seen one logical case made that there would be any benefit to the community by cutting off liquor sales at 3am. Nothing happens at 5 that doesnt happen at 3. Not one person has provided a shred of evidence to indicate that crime would be reduced, or quality of life improved, because there is none. All anyone seems to do is try to project their morals on others saying that 5am is too late to be out.
The only effect this law would have would be to hurt the pockets of the club owners and their staff.
The suggestion that the grove will "become an empty club district during the day, dominated by places that are only open at night" is absurd. The 5am cut off has been in place as long as I can remember, if that were going to happen, it would have happened by now. Equally absurd is the demand that these clubs become full service restaurants during the day....why? Are you just dying to have lunch at Vision nightclub? Please. There is no shortage of daytime restaurants, and other daytime businesses in the grove.
Bottom line, if you are not in the street at 3am or 5am, the club scene does not effect you. I have lived a block from cocowalk for the last 3 years and never had a problem related to the clubs. The area is well policed, and I simply dont see all this crime that everyone is concerned about.
Honestly, I feel the 5am cut off actually serves to reduce the crimes that come from the partying crowd. The truth is most club goers dont stay until 5am. The places are most likely to be full between 11pm and 2am, and crowd gradually trickles out between 2am and 5am. By 5am, a place like Vision is probably down to 20-40% of its max capacity.
Lets use vision as an example. Lets say for the sake of this discussion that their capacity is 300 people. I would guess by 3am they are down to about 250 people, by 4am probably 150, and by 5am lets say 75. So when they turn on the lights and kick everyone out, they are dumping 75 drunks out all at once into cocowalk and our neighborhood. However if they close at 3am they are dumping 250 drunks out all at the same time....THIS is the time that the crime occurs. A mass of people all dumped out at once, not necessarily ready to call it a night, loitering around cocowalk. This is when the fights and vandalism happen. I would much rather have the bulk of the crowd disperse gradually, than have them all kicked out en masse at 3.
I grew up in a state where the cut off is 2am, and I promise you, every time I go out back home I see far more fights than I do here. And most happen in the parking lots, right after 2 when the full bar/club gets emptied out all at once.
the server,
You're exactly right about the cut-off times. I lived in Arizona when last call was 1 a.m. (it is now 2 a.m.) and at 12:50 p.m., the bouncers would go around, ordering everybody to finish their drinks.
So everybody would pound their drinks, then get kicked out to their cars. Yeah, that really works.
In Miami, you can drink at your own pace because there is no rush, nobody is kicking you out, forcing you to your car and making you drive drunk.
yeah, thats true. In Boston it used to be 1am and then they switched to 2am. Didnt matter as the sidewalk after last call was usually like a boxing ring. People drink more/faster so they can get drunk before the bars close when you have curfews like that.
CRIME IN THE GROVE IS BAD BECAUSE THE POOR BLACK AREAS ALONG GRAND AVENUE PRODUCE DRUG AND PROSTITUTION ACTIVITY. THIS CITY'S LAWMAKERS WILL RUIN THE TOURIST DOLLARS AND THE JOBS AND BUSINESSES OF THOSE WHO WORKS IN THESE CLUBS.... GREAT IDEA !! THE GROVE WILL BE MORE EMPTY LESS TAX DOLLARS LESS JOBS AND MORE EMPTY LOCATIONS .... GOOD JOB CITY OF MIAMI ... WJILE OTHER SITY'S IN AMERICA ARE TRYING TO FIND NEW SOURCES OF REVENUS AND JOBS FOR THEIR RESIDENTS YOU ALL WORK HARD TO DO THE OPPOSITE .... YOU ALL NEED TO GO ...
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