You were paid to take Related's side, Murray!
Sell-out Murray Marcus wrote this letter to the Herald. I have a couple of questions for Murray: Why did you take the money if you are doing such good for the neighborhood and why are you keeping the amount a secret? If Home Depot paid you off, would you not be in favor of a Home Depot in the location?
Here is Murray (I'm for sale to the highest bidder) Marcus' letter:
"As president of the Bay Heights Home Improvement Association, I have been completely taken aback by the level of acrimony and politicking regarding the Grove Bay development on the land Mercy Hospital sold to The Related Group.
Bay Heights is one of two communities most impacted by any type of development on Mercy Hospital land. Our association and the developer arrived at a fair compromise, and while we would prefer nothing be built on that land, we need to be realistic, and make sure that what is developed is in everyone's best interest.
In my opinion, Commissioner Marc Sarnoff has not been fair to Bay Heights and Natoma Manors with regard to our support of the Grove Bay Development.
In his last flier he states that, 'The testimony from the uncompensated neighbors shows overwhelming concern over the negative impact on already congested streets in the immediate neighborhood.'
I wish to remind Commissioner Sarnoff that the immediate neighborhood is our neighborhood.
Mercy Hospital sold the land to The Related Group. If they did not build on it, another developer would with just as many problems, and the R4 zoning returns to its original, higher-intensity zoning of G1.
The original January 2005 agreement called for 1,000 condos, a medical office building with a parking garage, an emergency room, and no limits to curb future hospital expansion. This proposal was rejected.
Fifteen months later, Bay Heights and Natoma Manors accepted a proposal for 300 condos, a bay walk and a 10-year moratorium on building on the remaining Mercy Hospital property, LaSalle school and church properties included. We felt that this development would have far less of a negative impact on our neighborhoods and we would have less traffic problems.
Commissioner Sarnoff, this is about traffic, not about money. Let's work with the developer rather than try to stop this project.
We all know something is going to be built on that land. Let's make sure we don't have another Home Depot scenario where the Grove again loses out because of a lack of spirit of compromise."
MURRAY MARCUS
Here is Murray (I'm for sale to the highest bidder) Marcus' letter:
"As president of the Bay Heights Home Improvement Association, I have been completely taken aback by the level of acrimony and politicking regarding the Grove Bay development on the land Mercy Hospital sold to The Related Group.
Bay Heights is one of two communities most impacted by any type of development on Mercy Hospital land. Our association and the developer arrived at a fair compromise, and while we would prefer nothing be built on that land, we need to be realistic, and make sure that what is developed is in everyone's best interest.
In my opinion, Commissioner Marc Sarnoff has not been fair to Bay Heights and Natoma Manors with regard to our support of the Grove Bay Development.
In his last flier he states that, 'The testimony from the uncompensated neighbors shows overwhelming concern over the negative impact on already congested streets in the immediate neighborhood.'
I wish to remind Commissioner Sarnoff that the immediate neighborhood is our neighborhood.
Mercy Hospital sold the land to The Related Group. If they did not build on it, another developer would with just as many problems, and the R4 zoning returns to its original, higher-intensity zoning of G1.
The original January 2005 agreement called for 1,000 condos, a medical office building with a parking garage, an emergency room, and no limits to curb future hospital expansion. This proposal was rejected.
Fifteen months later, Bay Heights and Natoma Manors accepted a proposal for 300 condos, a bay walk and a 10-year moratorium on building on the remaining Mercy Hospital property, LaSalle school and church properties included. We felt that this development would have far less of a negative impact on our neighborhoods and we would have less traffic problems.
Commissioner Sarnoff, this is about traffic, not about money. Let's work with the developer rather than try to stop this project.
We all know something is going to be built on that land. Let's make sure we don't have another Home Depot scenario where the Grove again loses out because of a lack of spirit of compromise."
MURRAY MARCUS
posted by Tom Falco at 8:23 AM
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54 Comments:
The current Home Depot is 70,000 sq. ft. and Milam's is open for business. Under the original plan, it was going to be 130,000 sq. ft. and no Milam's, then it was to be 125,000 sq. ft. and a new Milam's (after a couple years of construction). How can present situation be considered losing out, when in fact the expansion was stopped dead in its tracks?
(The usual anti-Sarnoff, pro-Home Depot cranks will no doubt take up the commentary from here.)
The noise from the Home Depot delivery trucks is being totally drowned out by the sound of history being revised!
I don’t know where the fixation on size entered the Home Depot debate. It was not an issue for the two years that local residents declared their total opposition to ANY Home Depot! As best as I can tell the size of the store only became an issue when the leaders of the opposition bungled badly by stopping the good looking Max Strang plan and then botched the entire effort by failing to take legal action within the time allotted for such action.
You can see the coordinated effort to re-write history (and save political and legal reputations) by the lockstep orchestration of postings making a big to-do about the 70,000 sq ft store as though that was some kind of “victory” for the Grove.
I'd rather have the attractive new building than the current eyesore. I'd rather have truck traffic restricted to US-1. I'd rather have a spacious, clean new store than the "8th Street" clone. While this is probably the minority view on this blogsite... it's the majority view of rational Grove residents.
Any honest and rational person agrees with the above. As the poster called "reality" states, only someone with self-interest to protect would pretend that the store we got is in any way better than the store Home Depot tried to build.
Well if you don't think half the original store doesn't reduce the impact on the Grove,then you do need a reality check.
from The Grove First
We're very proud of being part of the community team that has made so much progress in our efforts to say No to Home Depot. We remind ourselves after over two and a half years that
* Home Depot's attempts at installing a full-scale big-box warehouse operation have been withdrawn.
* The mature trees on the site have been preserved.
* The grocery was not bulldozed-as the first design proposed.
We feel that going from the original 133,000 sq. ft. Big Box that would have consumed the entire site, to a 125,000 sq. ft. store that would have been two stories with a multi-level parking garage, to a 70,000 sq. ft store that will be among one of their smallest Home Depots, reduces the impact of the operations upon the neighbors, and it allowed the trees to be saved.
When we see how important this matter is to the families that live adjacent to the site, it's easy to stay motivated and focused on helping them. We know they'd do it for us if the situation were reversed.
We are presently in litigation and our putting our faith in the legal system and will let the courts interpret the law and make the final decision.
We will continue to fight to save our quality of life in Coconut Grove.
I am much more concerned about HOA presidents taking money, keeping it a secret (or is it not a secret among members of the HOA) and the obvious conflict of interests it creates.
We had a similar situation at the Atlantis on Brickell and BAP + Baumann over the construction of the Skyline building next door.
The president of the board in those days, Annette Tadeo, not only took money, she even had money from a special assessment conveniently "disappear". Micky Biss, another member of the board also took money. This almost brought down our fight against Skyline.
Ultimately it is wise to realize (1) such deals are usually unstoppable and the best solution is to try to reach a convenient and positive negotiation and (2) corrupt members of the board of condo associations and HOA should be, first, fired and, second, threatened with legal actions.
If the money wasn't disclosed.....and used for the improvement of the entire neighborhood....then the situation stinks and the folks who took the money deserve all the scorn being dumped on them. I just didn't think that was the situation. Did they actually just put the money in their personal bank accounts?
RE: the need for a realty check, I'm not an expert but I seriously doubt the reduction in square footage of the Home Depot produces a corresponding reduction in customer traffic. Maybe some impact.....but nothing significant. It probably just means they will have less display space and have to restock their shelves more often generating MORE truck traffic!!
I belive the smaller store does not sell lawn and garden items or lumber. So traffic will be lower than the larger store.
The parking lot has never been full as of yet. Not even on weekends. People are not shopping there mainly because it doesn't offer what they want. You can buy all the other items they sell at Target or even Walgreens. The lumber and major building supplies is what brings people in and that is not there to bring people in.
Shell Lumber for all your building needs!!!!
Thanks you for that lovely commercial for Shell, Target and Walgreens....but if no one is shopping at the Home Depot and the parking lot is semi-empty, what's all the bellyaching about?
Sounds like Home Dept did what we asked them to do......NOT sell lumber and other building supplies.
Sounds pretty harmless to me!
it appears Home Depot and Milams are co-existing at present but it's short lived according to the messages last year from Max Milam. His lease has its end in sight, and Home Depot has the lease rights to everything there. So much for the smaller sized Home Depot (at present) and the supposed victory in having our grocery store, too. Won't stay that way for long and then we are without a grocery store in Coconut Grove for the first time since I moved here in 1963. Great job zealots!
Relax, if sales are not what Home Depot has projected, they may not be there long. Half empty parking lots are not a good thing.
The poster above (11:15 AM) is right! We should give "the Devil" (Home Depot) their due! They did what we asked them to do as the building materials. They are putting locks on their carts that will prevent them from leaving their lot (learned this from City staff this week!) and are probably going to let Milams expand into the Walgreens when they move out in a few months. And we now know that the big truck that blocked the street WAS NOT a Home Depot delivery truck (even though our wily City Commissioner did all he could to create the false impression it WAS!)
It is quite obvious that a 70,000 sq ft store requires less truck traffic, less vehicle traffic and quite likely much less customers than a 133,000 sq ft store. Less vehicles means a better quality of life for the neighbors. Sounds like a win to me.
Two Questions for Murry Marcus. How much did Related pay you to endorse their R4 disaster? (R4 in a single family neighborhood.) Did someone at Related write your recent letter?
The 8th Street Home Depot is smaller than the usual Home Depot. It's not obvious to me that less people go there. What is obvious is that that store is always way too crowded and cramped.
The rambling and irrelevant post above will likely ensure this string is DEAD....but if anyone DOES scroll down this far....I'll point out that the robotic Sarnoff Apologist above keeps chanting the same mindless mantra.
"Smaller store equals less traffic" while all logic leads one to conclude the opposite.
A smaller store has less storage space so it has to be restocked more often.....hence MORE TRUCK deliveries!
"Less vehicles means a better quality of life for the neighbors. Sounds like a win to me."
"smaller store equals less traffic"
Hey the cows left the barn a long time ago. The McMansions went up where once Grove cottages stood with one vehicle which multiplied to four and five.
Doesn't Sarnoff live in one of those. Does anyone
remember that particular corner with it's small
cottages. Anyone living in the Home Depot vicinity deserves what happened.
The typical Grovite thinks history began with their arrival on the planet! They have no perspective. No judgment. No sense of balance. No concept of the difficulty of reconciling the needs of a diverse population in a fair and effective way. They are the creatures of inept parents who told them they were simply WONDERFUL and the idiots believed it!
Murray Marcus,
How much did Related pay you?
Is Related saying they will not pay you unless you keep shilling for its project?
(Is Related trying to get out of paying you? Claiming appeal etc...?)
Have you disclosed the amount to your neighbors?
Will you share any of the payoff money with anyone else?
Murray,
As a former member of the Grove First and of the Center Grove Neighborhood Association, I assure you that Marc Sarnoff, (a.k.a.anyonymous) the self-appropriated president of the above-mentioned farcical organizations, has written the majority of the preceding postings.
Marc David Sarnoff, the asinine, imperious, by-stander who so eagerly awaited Winton's downfall so he could become the yuppie, pro tem, neophyte "commissioner" has yet again distorted the facts surrounding the Grove Bay project.
Your synopsis of R-4 versus G-1 zoning is most accurate. The previous G-1 zoning would have resulted in four times as much traffic during the hours of 8:00am to 6:00 pm and contained absolutely no concessions for the surrounding neighborhoods.
On the contrary, the current R-4 zoning could have contained many more beneficial covenants for the surrounding neighborhoods had the so called "commissioner" Marc Sarnoff, understood what the citizens of District Two stood to gain in the way of public waterfront access and amenities and had he known how to negotiate on behalf of the citizens.
Now, thanks to "Commissioner" Sarnoff, the citizens of District Two, especially Coconut Grove, will yield little, if any, benefit from the multi-million dollar waterfront development known as Grove Bay.
Sarnoff is now the laughing stock of City Hall.
I suggest to you that in the coming months District Two search for a competent Commissioner. One who is an accomplished and savvy negotiator who can work with City Hall so that we can prevent further calamities such as the Home Depot and Grove Bay debacles created by Sarnoff.
As the initial poster at the top of this string, I want to thank the anti-Sarnoff, pro-Home Depot cranks and nut jobs for responding with the vituperative rants we've come to expect and enjoy. You're a lot more fun when you skip the medication.
In REAL politics, candidates get pushed to the center. That’s generally a good thing. We should want our leaders to appeal to the broadest array of viewpoints from a mid-point among them. Plus, from a practical, some might say craven standpoint, there’s no point in staking out vivid, dramatic positions on issues when you can huddle in the cozy center and avoid the darts directed at those who stand out from the crowd.
In ACTIVIST politics, however, it’s the reverse. There’s no room for “moderation” or “compromise” or reasonableness,” These are seen as weaknesses. Since participation in such groups is voluntary, people with other things to do (mow their lawns, read magazines, fish, etc.) tend to do them and leave the ranting required for really good “activism” to those who are not otherwise engaged in real world pursuits. So leadership slithers downhill and is typically bestowed upon the most extreme whack job in the bunch.
THEN….in forming Greater Miami Neighborhoods…..we created a confederation of Whack Jobs each elbowing the others aside in competition for the position of Ultimate Miami Whacko! And given where Miami stands in the global constellation of goof-ball cities, being named OUR most extreme tablepounder makes one the World Champion.
Makes me proud!
Can someone mention that Johnny Winton was arrested for attacking a police officer at MIA? Can someone mention that Manny Diaz was reprimanded by the Ethics Board. He paid a fine. Can someone mention that Joe Arriola and Manny Diaz demanded so many no bid contracts and change orders for their friends that the Homeland Bond fund has gone way overbudget? Can someone mention that Spence-Jones is facing $80,000 in fines for election law violations? From 2005.
Can someone mention the Fire Fee fiasco? Which started in 1999-2000?
Marc Sarnoff was elected late in 2006.
To Fair and Balanced - take another swig of Kool Aid.
To the President of the Bay Heights Home Owner Association:
Courage and the willingness to take the fight to very end are lost attributes that are being resurrected in South Florida. There will be winners and there can be losers, but what is lost in the compromise can be worse…….integrity. Courage is the glue that keeps all of us together. We should learn to lean on each other in the Grove, when one tires the other picks up the baton and runs with it for his/her stretch of the run. It is easy to settle and compromise, no developer comes in asking for what he expects to inevitably build, he knows to ask for a third more than he wants or needs because he will look for compromise, appearing to garner community support and look as if he is Solomon.
Look around we have compromised enough. Our City looks like a compromise, sometimes you stand your ground, for better or worse, allowing the fight play out to its logical conclusion.
“What can be built is always on the tip of the spear of all developers”, trading on fear, but trust the market dictates what “will be built”. If we allow ourselves to be captured by the illusion of what can be legally build we have lost. Many in the Bay Heights Homeowners Association complained that there was a representation that a prison could be built next to Mercy. Below is a reprint of an email that was provided to the Mayor, and carbon copied to District 2, shortly after the vote during the veto period, concerning the meeting conducted by the President of Bay Heights to its members:
The meeting was for all the residents of Bay Heights directed by Mr. Murray Marcus, President of the Bay Heights Homeowners Association, and sponsored by the Grove Bay people. In this meeting they asked everyone to sign a petition to approve this project, telling everybody that if it is not approved, among other structures, they could build a jail (what a form of intimidation). In the same meeting we were informed that Bay Heights will received X amount of money. The X is because they could not disclose the amount to us because there are more neighborhoods that they did not want to pay. I don't know if it is right or wrong, but I feel bad being part of cheating my neighbors, so I didn't sign.
I suspect there are 3 million reasons why this project works for Bay Heights and its Neighbor. As you will recall avoiding the requirement of disclosure the Related Attorney (separate counsel from Greenberg Traurig) advised the Commission that the obligation to pay the monetary settlement was released so as to avoid the need for disclosure.
This project will affect all of us in the Grove, and most importantly those living alongside the project on the South East side of Bayshore Drive. This project is the camel’s nose in the tent. The ten year building moratorium will pass in the blink of an eye. If the project is built it is conceivable it will take the ten years. The fight will continue with the Courage the Grove mustered to oppose the largest and most politically connected developer in the City of Miami.
Attached is an article about the Condo decline in Miami, published in the New York Times on Sunday:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/26/us/26condo.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5087%0A&em&en=90a789933b3a0b2f&ex=1180324800
My concern is and will remain this project will never be built but we will be left with a very saleable R4 designated property in the Grove.
City of Miami District 2 Commissioner
Marc David Sarnoff
So now we know that Mr. Commissioner's concern with the Mercy project is that "this project will never be built but we will be left with a very saleable R4 designated property in the Grove."
Glad he cleared that up.
But, you, know, explanations that take this long to conjure up are not terribly convincing.
Mr. Sarnoff:
The only "compromise" our city is engaged in now is "settling" for you as our commissioner.
You speak of “courage” and “integrity”, neither of which you have ever displayed in your tenure as pro tem commissioner or as president of the many Coconut Grove organizations that you superciliously created and elected yourself the president of.
Bullying and attempting to intimidate people are the only acts of "civic activism" that you have ever displayed - a far cry from "courage" and "integrity" - attributes that you have never exhibited in any of the civic entanglements in which you have so often placed yourself in the center of.
We in the Bay Heights Homeowners Association have chosen to make educated and informed decisions based on realistic projections of what the future of our neighborhood looks like.
We insist that you cease your misrepresentation of Bay Heights immediately. The Bay Heights Neighborhood Association did not support your installment as pro tem commissioner and will not endorse any future aspirations that you may have to represent District 2 in any capacity whatsoever.
Any future attempts by you to misrepresent Bay Heights will undoubtedly result in legal action against you. We simply ask that you discontinue your bedevilment our organization.
Your rancorous investigations into the private lives of our members and our residents have proven to be exceedingly menacing. It seems that you have built a reputation in Coconut Grove for intentionally desecrating those who do not share your frame of reference.
We in the Bay Heights Neighborhood Association do not see any nobility in your actions and we find your behavior dishonorable. We wish to inform you that we consider your malignant forays to be harassment and we shall utilize all legal avenues available to us to finally put and end to your provocations.
Sincerely,
Allen Fisher
Bay Heights, Coconut Grove
It's time folks started speaking the truth about this lying little Napoleonic bully.
Has anyone conducted an opinion poll? Do we know how many people really support him? Or was he elected mainly because Linda Haskins was so terrible during the campaign?
Others have spoken about finding a new candidate but we really have to take that seriously. It’s one thing when Sarnoff has his illiterate staffers come here to post taunting messages. But when he finds t necessary to do so personally it may be because he sees giant fissures opening up in his standing with the Grove public…to say nothing of the rest of District 2 where he is still totally unknown.
Let’s take back our district!!
Oh god, here we go again... I think you could post something about HD or the Mercy project once a month and full blown blog riots like this would still happen. Lets face it, you couldnt stop HD and you cant stop the Mercy project. Its best to try and compromise and make the best of the situation rather than fight it. To be quite honest, I havent noticed any traffic problems with the new HD site and I drive by it daily. Wouldve been nice to not have an HD there, but we all knew that wasnt gonna happen so the next best option would be to have a nice looking structure. Unfortunately that design had its pros and cons and the cons won so we are stuck sleeping in the bed that the revelers made for us. I think that everyone needs to take a deep breath and relax. Time to move on...
To Allen Fisher and to the Bay Heights gang,
Did you agree to accept money from Related? Did that money come with the stipulation you would not oppose their request for a zoning change to R4? How much did you get?
How much does it take to buy your "courage" and "intregrity"?
Please no more lobbyist written attacks on this blog.
You are obviously ignorant if you think a lobbyist would actually be paid to write anything on this silly blog....
Citizen Sarnoff on payments to community groups - As written in Sunpost article...
Council concerns stem from a similar deal in 2003 with the Grovenor House, which still hasn’t paid the $600,000 developers promised to various community groups, including HOATA.
“The Grovenor was a bunch of reputable people that still say that the money is coming,” Sarnoff said. “Well, so is Christmas. I still haven’t seen a dime.”
Has anyone seen the letters that Sarnoff wrote to the developers of the Grovenor House back in 2003 when he was trying to secure his share of that pay-off? How very telling of Sarnoff's character...
Marc Sarnoff quote in Sun Post last year on Mercy project....
“It’s a good project whether someone got paid to accept it or not and it should stand on its own merits,” said council member Marc Sarnoff. “At the end of the day traffic is traffic and a dollar in your pocket is not going to change that. This is something we need to think about and stop right now.”
It turned out Marc Sarnoff was wrong. Money did change things. Spend enough money and you get the votes and zoning you want.
It is too bad projects do not have to stand on their own merits. How much do you think Related spent to get the change in zoning?
Let's hope that McSarnoff can stick to the things he knows best... parks. We do need a good champion for the Grove Waterfront Plan.
No doubt, he will screw that up too. We need a new candidate now!
“It’s a good project whether someone got paid to accept it or not and it should stand on its own merits,” said council member Marc Sarnoff. “At the end of the day traffic is traffic and a dollar in your pocket is not going to change that. This is something we need to think about and stop right now.”
..."And I'm a Republican, no wait, I'm a Democrat, no wait...oh I’m just so confused!!"
He was a Republican when he said that, now he's a Democrat.
Yes. He's very committed to his party. He became a Democrat 48 hours before the election so he could receive a pile of dough laundered through the Democratic Party by Joe Arriola!
Yes, he's a man of deep convictions. I just hope HIS convictions are not for felonies.
....And what is this I hear about Sarnoff providing free legal services to city employees (a neighborhood resource officer, who needed some sort of legal help) and to Johnny Winton’s old assistant, Jason Walker, in exchange for help with
renovating two Coconut Grove public parks as per Sarnoff’s specifications...That's definitely illegal right? Why haven’t Sarnoff’s illegal practices been called into question before now?
I thought this thread was about Murray Marcus and Allen Fisher taking money from Related to "not oppose" Related's request for a rezoning? In fact, it appears getting the money means Murry and Allen have to continue shilling for Related.
I don't think that they opposed the rezoning in the first place. They are forward thinking individuals who happen to believe that urbanism is in fact a good thing.
So any money that their neighborhood organization received was seen as an impact fee for the neighborhood to use at their own discretion.
I just saw Murray Marcus, Allen Fisher and Johnny Winton down at Scotty's Landing - looked like they they were celebrating something....
Murray, Allen and Johnny were celebrating the size of their checks from Related.
Seems interesting to me that Murray Marcus lives about as far away from Mercy as you can get in Bay Heights.
His house backs onto US1 close to the museum!!!!
Yeah buddy, Mercy isn't going to bother him at all.
And our buddy Allen, is he one of three people listed as owners on Alatka and bayshore or does he really live on Sw 192nd St in South Dade?
hmmm, curious minds want to know.
I was at Scotty's at the same time. Bigfoot was at the next table and Elvis was at the bar.
Urbanism is NOT a good thing. Look at everyone's favorite "Urban Weekend" that just went down. Over 600 arrests and 2 homicides. Nuff said.
And so what do you THINK "urbanism" means?
I define urbanism as the way people live in an urban environment. Because you are such a genius, you are probably thinking about urbanization, or what happens when cities grow and become more urban. Its not a model for a community like the Grove. Keep it downtown. Any more brain busters, smartass?
For the record, "urbanism" and "urbanization" have the same meaning....but I was more interested in how you decided "urbanism is NOT a good thing." What arrests and homicides occured and what was the connection with "urbanism"????
I dont know what record your listening to, but it must be scratched. Those two words do not have the same meaning. If they did, we wouldnt need two words. "Urban Weekend" brought people from urban environments and the arrest count skyrocketed for that weekend along with 2 homicides. Same thing happened at the NBA All-Star game in Vegas. Miami is not a good city for urbanization for many reasons, this is just one.
"Blind Mind" is a very apt name for this poster. The term refers to a person lacking the essential empathy that makes humans bond with other people
I thought this thread was to discuss how much money Murray Marcus and Allen Fisher received? And why they demanded so much?
And I would like Murray and Allen to explain how R4 (High Rise Multi-family) zoning benefits the North Grove?
Are Murray and Allen going to accept money to promote high rise condos going on the Science Museum site?
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